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View Full Version : Egg Bound Difficulties - Urgent help needed



Ari
03-07-2006, 08:54 PM
Hi

Just curious if anyone else has had difficulties with egg bound geckos & what if any remedies do people use?

I used to keep 8 big aviaries of Australian parrots & finches years ago & found that adding cod liver oil to seed would reduce and or remove the risk of egg binding. Has anyone tried this or used this with geckos & is it feasible or healthy for a gecko to have cod liver oil.

I cant see why putting a sparing amount on crickets & then dusting them to hold it on can be a problem???

Anyway opinions required - as I think 1x of my Nephrurus Levis Pilbarensis is egg bound. She is lethargic & as you can see by this pic below she will stand like this for hours. See the egg outline on her side?

http://i2.tinypic.com/qyttes.jpg

Ari

Magpie
03-07-2006, 09:11 PM
Ari, is she still eating?
The major issue I would foresee is how to get the oil into her if she is not?
If she is eating, it seems unlikely to me that she would be eggbound; do they not usually stop eating a few days before laying?

geckodan
03-07-2006, 11:09 PM
Cod liver oil never provided any benefits for the birds and will not help your levis. You cannot lubricate a reproductive tract by putting digestible oils in a digestive tract.
Calcium supplementation in the form of an oral liquid (Sandoz,Calcivet - just a few drops orally every few hours) may help BUT it is not common in levis unless there is an underlying problem such as uterine infection. Prognosis is not good if she has stopped eating. Oral Polyaid (an emergency formula for birds) may help BUT the stress of giving oral meds to a sick levis may just push it over the edge.

Ari
03-07-2006, 11:43 PM
Cheers Magpie & Geckodan

I maybe over exagerating the situation, I will see in the next couple of days - she has been eating. However I have seen most of my female Pilbarensis acting in a similar way prior to laying. I will see if she lays in the next few days. I doubt she is currently stressed. All I can say is she isnt in the hide & is infact out in the open below the heat lamp. 5 days ago another female did exactly the same thing & then must have laid and now is fine.

I am get rather concerned by the constant lay of eggs quite frankily - with a male only having been placed in there 1 week ago. All these eggs are unfertile obviously as there was never a male in the enclosure. If she lays this clutch - then total eggs laid by females who are all virgins so to speak will be 22 eggs.

If this persists I may have to start to cool much earlier - opinions most welcome.

P.s. A further female is gravid yet again now.

Ari

Ari
03-08-2006, 12:26 AM
P.s. If it is a bad situation shes in I dont care if I have to spend $1000 to get her well - shes the one who crawls up my hand when I put my hand in her enclosure.

I would be DEVISTATED

Minhawali
03-08-2006, 06:27 AM
I lost a female N.levis occidentalis last year on that. :cry:
She stopped eating, started absorbing her fat from the tail and than the eggs and dropped dead after 3 or 4 weeks.

Johan.

Magpie
03-11-2006, 03:34 AM
Any news Ari?

Dr Alan
03-11-2006, 09:22 AM
Cod liver oil never provided any benefits for the birds and will not help your levis. You cannot lubricate a reproductive tract by putting digestible oils in a digestive tract.
Actually there is room for arguement here. Egg-binding in birds (and IMHO herps as well) is almost always due to subclinical hypocalcemia. The most effective treatment for acutely eggbound birds includes putting calcium and vitamin D3 directly into the crop. This is more effective and much safer than oxytocin. Cod liver oil is a natural source for bioavbailable D3, and may help eggbound animals to mobilize and utilize calcium. Increasing the serum calcium even moderately causes the uterus and oviducts to contract as well, which helps pass eggs, or fetuses in the case of livebearing mammals. The 'lubrication factor' has nothing to do with why cod liver can be helpful with eggbound animals.

Nathan Hall
03-11-2006, 10:48 AM
I've not had the best luck with egg-bound geckos. I've tried a few methods, with limited success. First, I increase calcium supplementation via Calcium Glubionate administration. Second, I offer the egg-bound specimen a good "source" of D3 (dietary and/or UVB). I also tend to increase the day/night temps by several degrees. Feeding her during this time of high stress may seem futile, but you must try to get her to eat something (might not be possible). Make sure she always has water available (light mistings help too). I will only briefly mention Oxytocin here since I feel it is about as effective as a placebo on geckos, and, as Dan mentioned, can be somewhat unsafe. I don't think it has really ever helped any of my egg-bound girls over the years. Finally, if I decide that I have no other options and believe that she is on her way out, I aspirate the eggs and gently massage them to a better position and see if the girl can get them out. If not, I offer a little more limited help. No, I'm not a vet and some of the "procedures" I perform at home might make some trained professionals shudder. I have learned a lot from spending my life working with geckos and pestering non-dom vets for information.

It is always best to take your herps to a GOOD non-domestic vet. I definitely donít suggest attempting to do any aspirations at home.

Nathan Hall
03-11-2006, 10:53 AM
BUT the stress of giving oral meds to a sick levis may just push it over the edge.

Too true. I place a drop or two of Calcium Glubionate on the snout, and they tend to lap it up. I don't think it tastes horrible, but I'm sure it is much more difficult to administer other meds.

Nathan Hall
03-11-2006, 10:56 AM
I maybe over exagerating the situation, I will see in the next couple of days - she has been eating
That is a good sign. Let us know.

Nathan Hall
03-11-2006, 11:10 AM
Increasing the serum calcium even moderately causes the uterus and oviducts to contract as well, which helps pass eggs,
Hence the importance of both calcium and D3. I think many folks don't understand that D3 helps regulate the calcium level in the blood (with the help of the liver, kidneys, hormones, etc.). Although the body can synthesize vitamin D3 from UVB, your gecko might not have the opportunity to do so (if you don't have the lights, the gecko always hides, etc.). So, that's when cod liver oil, other fishy oils, egg yolk, and other dietary forms of D come into play. I just use my Rep-Cal with D3 or Miner-All I if the geckos aren't exposed to UVB.

Dr Alan
03-11-2006, 11:21 AM
I agree with your observations Nathan, and I didn't mean to suggest that cod liver oil was a magical solution to egg-binding, which is as often as not disastrous for geckos. I did want to point out that there are logical, scientific reasons why it can sometimes be employed as part of a treatment strategy, though.

Ken Bartenfeld
03-11-2006, 07:53 PM
I have had trouble with mine eating once in the past, the vet gave her a vitamin B complex shot, suppose to make them more eager to eat, and it sure did at the time...

Just my 2 little cents ;-)

geckodan
03-11-2006, 08:35 PM
Oxytocin here since I feel it is about as effective as a placebo on geckos


I find it works at best only 50% of the time. Arginine vasotocin is the actual chemical used in reptiles but is not available commercially.

I think the big issue with cod liver oil in Australia is we are about 10 years behind US feeding methods in birds. This means we are usually feeding it to calcium deficient bird on seed based diets. 9 times out of 10 the bottle of cod liver oil has been sitting on a hot shelf since last year and is either out of date or rancid. The end result is that there is no real D3 available and no calcium to interact with. There are IMO from an Australian point of view far more efficient products for the prevention of egg binding and if we fed our birds like the americans are trying to train us to we wouldn't need to worry about it half as much.

Dr Alan
03-12-2006, 02:40 AM
I think the big issue with cod liver oil in Australia is we are about 10 years behind US feeding methods in birds. This means we are usually feeding it to calcium deficient bird on seed based diets.

.....if we fed our birds like the americans are trying to train us.

LMAO. Actually, at least half the birds I see in clinical practice here are still on seed-based diets, although the situation is greatly improved from 10-20 years ago. Most pet and pet supply stores still have large bins of loose seed mixes and I still see large new-world parrots who cycle into an egg-every-other-day phase and get into trouble because for 15 years they've eaten nothing but the sunflower seed component of their seed mix.

Regarding oxytocin, there's a synergistic effect between response to oxytocin and serum calcium levels as well, and for mammals, I rarely use it without administering intravenous calcium first. Calcium sensitizes the uterus to respond favorably, and can reduce the number of "uterine inertia" cases that go on to Caesarian section. With reptiles, the situation can be and usually is a lot more challenging. A typical snake or lizard may have been eggbound for days, weeks, or even months by the time I get a shot at it, and response to the most sound treatment plans can be discouraging. Add to this the fact that surgery is not always an automatic option ($70 snake/lizard needs $700 surgery), and the outlook for an eggbound reptile can be bleak.

Ari
03-16-2006, 03:52 AM
Finally she laid 2 x massive eggs today - thank God.

I doubt they are fertile as I only received the male on the 27 Feb - Infact 100% they are infertile.

Thanks everyone for your advice.