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View Full Version : ODDITY - Under Developed Eyes



geckoboy
03-09-2006, 09:57 PM
Hey guys,
Found one of the weirdest things ever last night in the incubator. I've hatched out almost 100 of these geckos (Pachydactylus tigrinus) over the years and never seen anything like this before. This little guy hatched out perfectly normal....except for his eyes. They are so unbelieveably underdeveloped but he doesn't seem to be suffering from it. The clutchmate hatched out completely normal.
Anybody ever seen this or anything like it before? If anyone knows, I would like to find out what kind of development issues would cause something like this.
Here's a pic of a normal subadult P. tigrinus:
http://www.geocities.com/geckoboy14/HPIM1915.JPG
And here's some pics of the hatchling with the underdeveloped eyes:
http://www.geocities.com/geckoboy14/HPIM2063.JPG
http://www.geocities.com/geckoboy14/HPIM2064.JPG
http://www.geocities.com/geckoboy14/HPIM2072.JPG

Coleonyx
03-09-2006, 10:07 PM
That looks weird. :shock:

I had a one eyed Coleonyx that hatched out. He couldn't move and his mouth wasn't lined up. He died before he left the egg.

geckodan
03-09-2006, 10:09 PM
Micropthalmia (small eyes) occurs in a wide range of species (cats, ****ateils, many snake species) and is usually a result of a developmental insult during that part of gestation or incubation. This may include temperature spikes, drugs, toxins. It is not often a genetic problem. I would however consider it prudent to cull this individual from any future breeding population (i.e give it away to some kid as a first gecko but not to be bred from).

JBReptiles
03-09-2006, 10:12 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...hes so funny looken....i want one :)

Leland
03-09-2006, 10:36 PM
Nathan,
The eyes look smaller, but not under-developed. Also, do you notice the total lack of black pigment, that's almost as strange as the eyes...A bit odd I must say, but too bad he didn't turn out normal, good breeder with that odd color. I notice all the really strangely pattern/colored P.picta I hatch always have a defect.

geckoboy
03-09-2006, 10:36 PM
Thanks for the info Dan...always very informative.
Of course I will just give this gecko away as a first pet as you mentioned...I would not consider breeding it in the future just in case it happened to be a genetic trait, however unlikely.
Dan...to the best of your knowledge, would this kind of event occur at random without a stimulus such as those you mentioned? I ask because his egg was incubated in the same container as many others which have been hatching out normally...including his clutchmate. Of course no drugs/toxins were present and the incubator keeps the temps constant. Any other causes that you may know of?
Thanks,
Nathan

Nathan Hall
03-09-2006, 11:02 PM
I've hatched many geckos like that over the years. As Dan mentioned, it is often associated with a developmental issue during incubation. I would also suspect that there might be a vitamin A issue as well. When I bumped up Herptivite supplementation, I've not had one gecko with eye problems in almost three years. Could this be coincidental? Sure, but it must be mentioned. I also believe that when an egg takes on too much water or dries out too much, this can have detrimental effects on the embryo, and the eyes are often the first to show signs of incubatory insults. Alas, it could be associated with inbreeding, under or over supplemented adults, etc.

geckoboy
03-09-2006, 11:14 PM
Thanks Nathan,
Those are some more possibilites to think about...
I can eliminate inbreeding fairly confidently...my group consists of a WC trio and their 1st generation offspring only.
Supplementing would also be a hard sell as the cause as I use both calcium and vitamin supplements in appropriate amounts.
The one thing you mentioned that could well be the cause is the amount of water the egg receives during incubation. I incubate these eggs fairly dry, perhaps this egg was near the edge of the container and got drier than the others??
I'll never know for sure I suppose...unless it happens again.
Thanks for the input everyone...if you have other ideas or similar experiences, please share.
Thanks,
Nathan

Nathan Hall
03-09-2006, 11:20 PM
I was simply rattling off anything I could think of. From a clinical standpoint, Dan has much more experience. Most of what I mentioned is speculation, but I believe there is some validity to some of the factors mentioned. Keep us posted on future offspring.

BTW, I wasn't criticizing your husbandry or anything, just making some postulations.

Nathan Hall
03-09-2006, 11:26 PM
I use both calcium and vitamin supplements in appropriate amounts
How do we truly know? I dust foodstuff and give Calcium Glubionate when needed, but I think that supplementation amounts are arbitrary to some degree.

geckoboy
03-09-2006, 11:56 PM
Hey Nathan...no worries...by no means did I think you were criticizing my husbandry. I was just musing about the possibilities you mentioned out loud :)
I also agree on your second point there...who knows how much of a certain nutrient each gecko species actually needs? I think that as long as we provide them with access to most essential nutrients in moderation (according to our current understanding of gecko husbandry) then most of our geckos will live long, productive lives.

Nathan Hall
03-10-2006, 12:00 AM
I think that as long as we provide them with access to most essential nutrients in moderation (according to our current understanding of gecko husbandry) then most of our geckos will live long, productive lives.

I agree.

Nathan Hall
03-10-2006, 12:02 AM
BTW, awesome name :D

geckoboy
03-10-2006, 12:15 AM
Thanks! You too...hehe! Speaking of names...my friends started calling me geckoboy years ago when I started my gecko collection. It stuck and became the business name. Most people in the hobby up here in Canada actually call me geckoboy as opposed to Nathan... :lol: Not sure which I prefer... :P

geckodan
03-10-2006, 06:16 PM
Most people in the hobby up here in Canada actually call me geckoboy as opposed to Nathan...


Most of my acquaintences just call me wierdo instead of Danny. You got it lucky!!!

Also consider egg trauma in that list. A simple bump to one part of the egg that handles the blood supply to one crucial part of a developing structure. Just consider how precise a timetable these little bodies are on.They need to start off as a bunch of cells and in 50 or so days we expect them to just jump out as a perfect specimen. Nature really is cool when you look closer. Its not surprising that sometimes it doesn't all go right. When did you last have a day where not one thing went wrong, however minor?

Nathan Hall
03-11-2006, 03:41 PM
Also consider egg trauma in that list. A simple bump to one part of the egg that handles the blood supply to one crucial part of a developing structure. Just consider how precise a timetable these little bodies are on.They need to start off as a bunch of cells and in 50 or so days we expect them to just jump out as a perfect specimen. Nature really is cool when you look closer. Its not surprising that sometimes it doesn't all go right. When did you last have a day where not one thing went wrong, however minor?

Excellent point, Dan.

sikorae
03-11-2006, 07:56 PM
We had a auric that had one eye smaller than the other, we had to hand feed him for quite a while, but he hunts on his own now, we don't know why it happened as like you the clutch mate was fine.

the moof
03-12-2006, 06:33 AM
well, as long as it is not life threatening, im sure the gecko will grow strong and healthy.

regards,
*the moof*

geckoboy
03-27-2006, 06:47 PM
Just a quick update...
The little guy with the little eyes died last night. :(
He was doing well for the first little while then started refusing food. There was no option of hand feeding a baby P. tigrinus...I would have squished his head open while trying...they are extremely small. He also seemed as though he was getting weaker, probably from a lack of food.
On the up side, his siblings have been doing well. I have 2 others hatched out right now with about 16 more to go so far this season. Gotta love tigrinus!! :D

the moof
03-28-2006, 11:07 AM
very sad Nathan. im sorry.

good news of the hatchings though!

regards,
*the moof*

geckodan
03-28-2006, 05:56 PM
You would have to think that either he simply could not see properly or that this was just one of the little guys congenital deformities (it is not uncommon to have multiple - pups with cleft palates often have club feet, heart defects etc.. Its not that much different in herps)

miguel camacho!
05-13-2006, 08:15 PM
lol, it's sad to say but that guy there reminds me of photoshops andrew (LAC herps) was showing me a while back.

sikorae
05-17-2006, 05:28 PM
Sorry to hear about the little guy not making it.