PDA

View Full Version : Klemmeri Questions



Palex134
07-12-2006, 03:23 PM
What is the lifespan for these little guys, when do they become too old to breed? What would you say is the average amount of clutches a female can throw out a year? What is the minimum size cage for an adult pair? Also, what would you all say is the best substrate for them? I am planning on including some bamboo poles and live plants. Also, are they gluers, if not, where would they lay, should I make a nest box or just have them lay in the substrate or bamboo poles. Also, what diameter poles are best? Also, what are some good plants, and do they need UVB , even when their food would be duested with D3? Thanks

mat.si
07-12-2006, 04:22 PM
Hi!
I'll try to answer some of your questions.

I have one old male which is around 9 years old, a bit on the fat side, but still doing great. Two of my females are around 7 years old and they decreased their eggs production in the last few years significantly. This year one of them produced only one pair of eggs, but both babies hatched.
Females produce at least 4 to 5 cluches per season (have to check notes).

I keep some pairs in glass terrariums (50x30x30 cm), others are kept in smaller plastic terrariums.

I use peat as a substrate, coconut fibre would probably work great as well.

They just love bamboo. Put a lot of bamboo and some live plants in the terrarium.
I use bromelias (don't know the name).

The are not gluers. They lay their eggs mostly in the bamboo and sometimes on the ground, party buried in the substrate.
I mostly use thumb sized bamboo poles. They hide and sleep inside the bamboo, but they don't like holes that are too wide. They mostly use smaller poles.
For easier egg collection, leave only shorter holes open and close all the bamboo sections that have very deep holes.

I use full spectrum tubes, placed over some screen mesh on top of the terrarium and place a long horizontal bamboo pole as close to the tube as possible.
They get enough heat this way.
They benefit from UVB, but it's not 100% necessary, if you supply D3 with food.

I cup feed them very small dusted crickets.
They don't really like baby food very much, but they eat quite a lot of Zoo Med's day gecko food, which is mixed with vitamins and calcium and fed dry.
I provide females with cuttlefish bone for extra calcium.
Water is available at all times.

There you go. Almost everything you need to know. :)

Regards, Matjaz

Palex134
07-12-2006, 05:30 PM
thanks very much, that was great! I am going to buy most of the stuff tonight!

Palex134
07-12-2006, 06:54 PM
also, what would you reccomend for plants? Can I use an exo terra european glass aquarium for them? Thanks

JBReptiles
07-12-2006, 08:31 PM
A good plant i use for mine is a snake plant...the reason they like bamboo is because they like smooth surfaces...And snake plants are pretty smooth,,.,my grandis absolutly love them...

Palex134
07-12-2006, 11:09 PM
thanks man, I appreciate the help!

Joe Farah
07-13-2006, 11:29 AM
Hey did you manage to find some for sale? If you got an adult pair I'll be blown away!

Anyhow, I agree with eveything "Mat.si" said, except that my klemmeri LOVE baby food. They seem to prefer guava, mango, peaches and papaya the most. I mix in a bit of Day Gecko Diet and a touch of honey too.

As far as plants go, mine are always climbing on the short-leaved sansevieria plants. They seem to like those the best.

Also, They do well in Exoterra tanks, but those cages need to be sealed up a bit sometimes because they come with grooves and openings that klemmeri can escape through.

Bamboo is a must for klemmeri, by the way. Hollow, unpainted, bamboo about an inch in diameter. Pier 1 Imports sells it cheap.

Joe Farah
07-13-2006, 11:36 AM
I recently typed up a brief info sheet on klemmeri care and breeding. Its on my temporary site (below my signature) its a work in progress but it answers a lot of questions for first-time klemmeri keepers.

Nathan Hall
07-13-2006, 02:09 PM
Anyone want to post a care sheet for them in the care sheets section? Joe, Matjaz...

Joe Farah
07-13-2006, 02:22 PM
I'd be happy to do that, Nathan.

Give me a bit to get it together, then I'll submit it to you.

Should I put a photo or 2 in there also?

Do you just want a ".txt" document?

Nathan Hall
07-13-2006, 02:52 PM
You can simply post it in that section. Pics would be ideal. Take all the time you need, Joe. great talking to you. It is really refreshing to talk to folks who have that fire and passion for their herps.

Palex134
07-13-2006, 03:32 PM
wow thank you both!
Yes Joe, I woke up, checked my email and someone had emailed me the ad, it was posted on kingsnake. It took me like 20 minutes to buy!

they are 1.1 adult proven, a couple years old though, but unrelated and not bad.

I bought them from a Blake Wood. I got them for a decent price, and I cannot wait! Thanks everyone for the helo!

Joe Farah
07-13-2006, 03:33 PM
Alrighty, I will definately do that. It looks like there isn't one in there for P. m. grandis either. I'll see what I can do about that too...

Also, it was great talking to you the other day. I was very happy to hear that you're an avid field herper too! I love the site and I know i speak for everyone when I say, "Thanks" for all your hard work to keep it up and running. It's the best gathering place for gecko enthusiasts that I'm aware of!

Joe Farah
07-13-2006, 03:40 PM
Blake Wood from NY? - It must be the same guy that I'm thinking of. I know he is into klemmeri and I also have a friend in NJ who went to Blake's place and bought a klemmeri or 2 from him. He said that his animals are first rate, so I'm sure you can expect to get some real prize winners!

You lucky SOB!

It took me like 4 months to find my first adult pair!

Nicely done though - Im happy for you. They are really cool and I'm sure you'll love them.

Palex134
07-13-2006, 03:57 PM
ya, I was waiting close to 3, a little over 2. That is a great relief, 2 people who I know are huge in Phelsuma have said that, so that is good.

I have a week, because I used an MO instead of my usual Paypal, so I am going to buy a cage, and all the supplies, make it look awesome, then have the pair arrive with everything perfect!

can you guys give me some temp answers, I have seen many different numbers? I am looking for an ambient temp, then a temp for the basking spot which would be the bamboo 3 inches from the top.

Joe and others, can you post some pics of your setups if you use Exo Terras.

Thanks

Joe Farah
07-13-2006, 04:26 PM
You got it!

When I get home from work later I'll post some pics of my various Exoterra klemmeri set-ups for you and answer any other questions (temps, ect...) you have.

But in exchange, I want to know who you are and what your deal is...

I've never seen you drop your name and your profile is basically blank.

PM me if you want, but Im curious who Im dealing with here. Do you have any Phelsuma experience?

Talk to you later,

Nathan Hall
07-13-2006, 04:26 PM
I can't wait to get mine, Mr. Joe. I think I might set them up in our bedroom. My wife really loves them! She's the boss, so I'll leave it up to her.

Nathan Hall
07-13-2006, 04:37 PM
But in exchange, I want to know who you are and what your deal is...
You crack me up, Joe. "My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die!" Name that movie...

Joe Farah
07-13-2006, 04:45 PM
Prince's Bride! One of my favorites!

Joe Farah
07-13-2006, 04:48 PM
- And I guarantee you will be very pleased when you receive those klemmeri. They are just so robust and vibrant. They're eating like little pigs too!

My wife's the boss too! That has a lot to do with why Im on here and not a python forum right now :)

Palex134
07-13-2006, 04:51 PM
Joe,
When do your females start slowing down, and producing less clutches? What would you say is their lifespan, I have heard 5-9, and 9-12?

Thanks

Joe Farah
07-13-2006, 06:12 PM
Those are short, simple questions with long, complicated answers.

I'll get back to you this evening.

mat.si
07-13-2006, 06:49 PM
Yes, short-leaved sansevieria would work great.
I use smooth, thicker leaved Neoregelia sp. bromelias in all my klemmeri terrariums.
(I don't know the exact species name). They work great for me.

I can't get any of the exotic fruit baby food over here. Maybe that's the reason, my klemmeris don't like it too much.
Zoo Med's day gecko food works great for me, because I feed it dry and it doesn't start to mold, if you don't remove it in time, like baby food does.

And yes, never underestimate the klemmeri's ability to escape through the smallest of cracks/openings. :)

Great Joe, for going ahead with the caresheet. I would try to do it, but I wouldn't want to promise anything, because I'm always terribly short on time.

Good luck with your new klemmeri, Peter.
My ambient temps are between 20 and 26 C, going up to 28, 29 C (maybe 30) under the lamps.

Horizontal bamboos under the lamp are important, so the geckos don't hang from the top too much of the time, which can result in floppy tails.

Matjaz

Brandon Parry
07-13-2006, 07:51 PM
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c246/hrreptiles/94b9eec2.jpg

Here's a picture of the little guy I got from Joe. All this talk about some klemmeri and I had to throw a picture in.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c246/hrreptiles/cage.jpg
here's a picture of what I am keeping mine in. I ran out of bamboo when I was assembling the cage so I still need to place a horizontal piece across the top for basking

Joe Farah
07-13-2006, 10:25 PM
I can't remember the last time I posted pics on here, but I do remember that I did it wrong and they didn't show up until Nathan fixed me up.

I keep my adult pairs in the small exoterra cubes. Here is a pic of the inside and one from above looking down onto several enclosures:

http://www.freewebs.com/joefarah/klemmeriExo%20017.jpg

http://www.freewebs.com/joefarah/TopExo%20002.jpg

Ok, lets see if this will work....

Joe Farah
07-13-2006, 10:27 PM
Damn it!

I was hoping the pics would show up here and not the links

bugman426
07-13-2006, 10:29 PM
http://www.freewebs.com/joefarah/klemmeriExo%20017.jpg
http://www.freewebs.com/joefarah/TopExo%20002.jpg

Joe Farah
07-13-2006, 10:36 PM
cool! thanks

bugman426
07-13-2006, 10:40 PM
just put before the pic url and after it...its that simple

Joe Farah
07-13-2006, 10:44 PM
i used [URL] pic url [URL]

Thanks, mike

JBReptiles
07-13-2006, 10:46 PM
Heres pics of my Phelsuma tanks..No klemmeri..But i guessing it would work for em just not a 30 gallon :)...
First pair,
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/SGVreptiles/DSCN2830.jpg
Pair #2.my fav tank,
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/SGVreptiles/DSCN2729.jpg

bugman426
07-13-2006, 10:47 PM
is it a PIA to clean out those tanks since the plants arent in pots? I feel like it would ruin the roots every time you change them out

JBReptiles
07-13-2006, 10:59 PM
NOPE...I just spot clean.And scrape the glass down with a razor blade.and occasianaly turn the top soil.The first tanks are potted so i dont have to worry about that.

Joe Farah
07-13-2006, 11:02 PM
Those are nice setups, Jeff. Attractive and functional. They've got it good in there!

JBReptiles
07-13-2006, 11:18 PM
Heck yes they do..lol...Yeah..their really awsome..EAT ALOT..they tong feed....give em a couple roaches a day and some babyfood crestedgecko diet/clarks diet mix about 3 times a week..

Joe Farah
07-13-2006, 11:28 PM
Now where is Palex134 ? Hopefully you will get some good ideas from our pics

There are all kinds of ways to house Phelsuma that are more than ideal for them and are attractive to look at. I just make sure all their basic needs are taken care of first, then I go about making it look nice.

klemmeri like it warm, humid, and bright. They also like plants and bamboo.

- but you already knew all that :lol: I'm looking forward to seeing pics of your setup when you get it together - And when you get your klemmeri in there!

Palex134
07-13-2006, 11:34 PM
haha thanks everyone!
I go out for a few hours, come back, and this thread has just been filled with pictures. I love the set ups everyone!

Thanks everyone for their contributions! I appreciate them greatly!

Joe Farah
07-13-2006, 11:55 PM
You got far more replies to this thread than any thread that's come before it in the Phelsuma section. Even if you don't count a half dozen because their irrelevant side chatter... I still think you've got it

Thats pretty cool

Palex134
07-13-2006, 11:57 PM
we need more threads like this!

Joe Farah
07-14-2006, 12:00 AM
Im surprised I haven't gotten into a "disagreement" with anyone and got the entire thread deleted.

Im trying not to give Nathan any more headaches

Palex134
07-14-2006, 12:02 AM
Im surprised I haven't gotten into a "disagreement" with anyone and got the entire thread deleted.

Im trying not to give Nathan any more headaches

haha my phelsuma webs thread haha

anyways,
I was looking at caging today, and I heard some people are using the 12" cubes, should I just get one of those for my pair, or go bigger? Thanks

JBReptiles
07-14-2006, 12:03 AM
Hey Joe,
Not to hijack the topic.But what is the average incubation time for P.m grandis.Im sitting on a clutch that was laid 6-1-06.Ive had one hatch so far from a different clutch.The other one to that clutch mate didnt make it out.
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/SGVreptiles/DSCN2764.jpg
This one laid on 5-13-06 hatch 7-2-06

Nathan Hall
07-14-2006, 12:03 AM
Im surprised I haven't gotten into a "disagreement" with anyone and got the entire thread deleted.
:D


Im trying not to give Nathan any more headaches
Staring at the computer too long gives me headaches, not my forums.

Joe Farah
07-14-2006, 12:03 AM
Thats what mine are in and they are thriving and breeding in there. Those pics that i just posted (that mike posted for me) are of 12x12x12 exoterras

Palex134
07-14-2006, 12:05 AM
I think Ill do that, and save some cash! Thanks everyone, and great Grandis, wish I could help!

Joe Farah
07-14-2006, 12:16 AM
Hey Joe,
Not to hijack the topic.But what is the average incubation time for P.m grandis.Im sitting on a clutch that was laid 6-1-06.Ive had one hatch so far from a different clutch.The other one to that clutch mate didnt make it out.


Funny you should ask, because I was just going over my records and calculating average incubation times for grandis and klemmeri eggs in my incubator over the last 2 years.

For grandis, my average egg incubation time is 54 days, with the shortest being 51 and the longest being 58. The vast majority were 53-55 days.

For klemmeri, the average time was 45 days. The shortest incubation time f
or a klemmeri egg that i have had to date is 40 days. The longest is 48.

My incubation temps range from 78 to 88 degrees on a weekly scale (depending on what the room temps are), but generally the temps are 82F at the coldest part of a 24 hr cycle and 86-88 during the hottest part of the day.

I have gotten a roughly 50/50 male female ratio like this during my Phelsuma breeding days, although i have sold many offspring before I got to see what sex they were, so who knows? - That one's up in the air. Of my holdbacks though, I have gotten about 50/50

JBReptiles
07-14-2006, 12:41 AM
Mine are being incubated at around 83-84...I hope these other ones hatch soon...

Joe Farah
07-14-2006, 12:51 AM
10-12 days or so is what Im guessing on those.

You can take those numbers i put up there to the bank, boys! I don't care what you read.
- Now that's not to say that other people don't get different times, but mine are always right at 53-55 days or so. And my incubation temps are all over the place...

I incubate at near 100% humidity too - if that matters to anybody

Joe Farah
07-14-2006, 12:55 AM
You can take those numbers i put up there to the bank, boys!



That was in reference to my incubation times for grandis and klemmeri that I've recorded, NOT to my guess on when his grandis eggs will hatch.

Just for the record

JBReptiles
07-14-2006, 01:27 AM
HAHA..I HOPE THEY HATCH SOON....WELL SEE IF YOUR TIMES ARE CORRECT FOR ME.

Joe Farah
07-14-2006, 01:44 AM
Lets hope they hatch, period!

JBReptiles
07-14-2006, 02:04 AM
THis is true this is true...ive only got one and its in a well planted 5 gallon...do you think i could stick these "new"hathclings in their with my first one???I saw you had grandis and klemmeri together...thats awomse...you always keep em together...nice carpets too:)

mat.si
07-14-2006, 06:49 AM
I very much agree with Joe on his incubation times and temps.

I incubate klemmeri eggs at two different temperatures, but I would still need more data on the sexes of hatchlings.

- klemmeri eggs incubated at 28 - 30 C (app. 82 - 86 F) hatch in app. 45 days and there are more males
- klemmeri eggs incubated at app. constant 26 C (app. 79 F) hatch in almost exactly 60 days and you get more females (mostly females actually).

Matjaz

Palex134
07-14-2006, 10:57 AM
heres an update:
I ordered my 12x12x18 Exo Terra from ReptileDepot. Today, hopefully I will make it out to Home Depot and Pier 1 to pick up the stuff.
I am planning on getting:

3 bamboo sticks, one for horizontal basking, one horizontal for egg laying and hiding, midway down the tank, and another semi-vertical for climbing.

1 or 2 of those plants, the small ones.

1 Florescent tube

cocofiber for bedding

any other suggestions? Thanks

Palex134
07-14-2006, 11:16 AM
Also, coloring differences between the sexes? The seller says that the male is gorgeous and bright, while the female is duller, and not as bright. Has anyone else noticed that with thier Klemmeri? thanks

Joe Farah
07-14-2006, 11:30 AM
Color intensity in klemmeri is related more to age than sex, at least in my 2 bloodlines. Both males and females are equally bright and stunning when they are young (Birth-2yrs old), but then they start to get a duller, more "faded" look to them at 3 yrs old or so. They are still beautiful once they are fully mature, just not quite as vibrant. After you have seen a bunch of them mature into adults, you can tell if they are young or old, just by how vibrant they are (Also their physical structure).

The older they are, the duller they get - unfortunately

Do you know when the female that you are getting was hatched?

PS - Home Depot has awesome spray bottles, incase you don't have one already

Joe Farah
07-14-2006, 11:32 AM
Actually, I guess adult males may be a teeny tiny bit more vibrantly colored than the females, but not really noticeably. I can't tell my adult pairs apart based on color. Their body shapes are distinctly different to the trained eye though, so I can tell who's who from across the room

Palex134
07-14-2006, 11:33 AM
She is about 3 years old and he might be too, but I am not sure. He says the male is still super bright.

Joe Farah
07-14-2006, 11:44 AM
I have very little experience with klemmeri past 3 yrs old, so I can't say too much about this. - Which is also why I've been reluctant to address your questions about how long they are reproductive for and how long they live.

I would like to hear what Matjaz has to say about this though. He can probably tell you more than me.

Hopefully that female still has some good productive years left in her...

Palex134
07-14-2006, 11:50 AM
well I have heard they tend to slow down after 6 or so, and someone said that some of their 12 year old females lay once a year.

Joe Farah
07-14-2006, 12:00 PM
I sure hope thats true! That would mean my females should be rockin for many more years!

To be honest though, I have my doubts. That sounds kinda old for such a small gecko. There seems to be a direct correlation between adult size and lifespan when it comes to Phelsuma. The larger species seem to live longer. In fact, they take longer to do everything. They take longer to hatch, mature, hit "menopause" and they take longer to die.
The only sources I would trust on klemmeri reproductive lives, and lifespans would be the guys (and girls, respectfully) out in Europe. They really have their shit together, and they've been breeding klemmeri for longer.

I want Matjaz to throw his 2 cents in here

Brandon Parry
07-15-2006, 03:24 AM
I have created an editable caresheet that I would like for fellow klemmeri keepers to go over and make any needed changes.

http://www.herpsonline.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Phelsuma_klemmeri

mat.si
07-15-2006, 09:18 AM
First, here's a photo of one of my klemmeri terrariums.
The female on the back wall is cb 2004, the male on the bamboo is an old one, cb 1999 and he is already past his prime colors, but otherwise still doing great.
http://tinypic.com/2006vbt.jpg

My 2 cents are in my notes. :)
I dug up my old notebooks and I'll check the klemmeri right now.
My oldest male is cb 1998, my two oldest living females are cb 1999.

I first bred klemmeri in 1999, and my two oldest females were first bred in 2001, when they were 1.5 years old.
There's a bit of a chaos in my old notes, but it seems they have produced the most eggs during the first year (2001) and then they quite consistently produced only 2 to 3 pairs of eggs per female per year. I think most of them hatched.
This year my two 1999 females produced 2 and 3 pairs of good looking eggs respectively, but not all of them were fertile and some are still incubating.

At the moment I have 5.8 adult klemmeri.

If you bought 3 years old, good looking pair, they should still produce enough fertile eggs for you, but I would keep at least some of the first offspring you get from them for your future breeding stock.
Good luck.

Regards, Matjaz

Palex134
07-16-2006, 11:55 AM
well I went out, didnt find any good plants or bamboo anywhere! I am going to order the bamboo online if I cannot find it today. I am going to a huge greenhouse today to try and find some tropical plants.

Beautiful set up, and great notes! I think I will keep a few back! Thanks

Palex134
07-16-2006, 01:44 PM
ok,
I went to a local greenhouse and found everything I needed! I got 10 feet of bamboo, it looks a little small in diameter, but should be ok. I got one of those snake plants, as well as some other tropical plant that is gorgeous, now I am waiting on the cage. Thanks

Palex134
07-16-2006, 07:56 PM
here are some pics of what I have for the cage, which has yet to arrive :?

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/palex134/ee3bc22e.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/palex134/815e28ee.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/palex134/9fb05436.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/palex134/04d67b5c.jpg
those are the plants
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/palex134/DSC09974.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/palex134/DSC09972.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/palex134/DSC09975.jpg
heres the bamboo

Joe Farah
07-16-2006, 08:08 PM
looking good, Peter

Palex134
07-16-2006, 08:12 PM
is the bamboo going to be big enough for them? How would I remove eggs from the bamboo?

mat.si
07-17-2006, 06:29 AM
I usually find the eggs within the first 24 hours and I just very gently roll them out of the bamboo into the palm of my hand.
So far, I didn't have any problems, because the eggs were turned around soon after they were laid. I usually try to put them in the incubator in the position they were originally laid in. All the bamboo pieces with open holes (not too deep) should be easily removable from the terrarium. I take them out and check them with a flashlight. It's easy to see when the female has laid eggs, as they are clearly visible through her belly, when she's on the glass.
Once the female chooses her favorite laying place, she usually uses the same one all the time.

Another option is a horizontal bamboo pole with a lenghtwise section cut out, so the eggs can be removed by reaching inside with a small spoon.
The eggs can be scooped into the spoon with a small brush or something similar.

Your bamboo seems wide enough for them. They don't really like it too wide, specially for hiding inside. For climbing, the size doesn't actually matter.

Any bamboo that can't be removed easily, is better sealed on both sides to prevent problems with egg extraction.

Matjaz

Palex134
07-17-2006, 11:09 AM
thanks for the help!

Palex134
07-18-2006, 08:43 PM
Great News!

I am getting the Klemmeri on thursday!

Joe Farah
07-18-2006, 10:37 PM
Alright! I cant wait to see some pics

mat.si
07-19-2006, 06:19 AM
Me too! :)

Gexter
09-29-2011, 01:36 PM
Hey guys, just want to say that this entire thread is great. I'm hoping someone can still offer their expertise as I just noticed the last post was in 2006 lol. Anyways, I just caught my pair of klemmeri breeding about an hour ago :D got it written down on the calender. How long will it take for her to lay eggs? When should I be expecting them?

terradas
10-03-2011, 09:43 AM
Congrats! When I introduced my grandis it was only about 2 weeks until I had good eggs. I'd guess about 2 weeks for Klemmeri if they were successful.

hexentanz
10-04-2011, 04:22 AM
It depends on a number of factors really and your gecko.

The top two would be:

1.) Was she properly fertilized?
2.) Will she choose to store the sperm for later egg production instead of production now?

I rarely catch my pair in the act, but can tell you the male is quite the horny little thing as he is often trying to attract the females attention with fancy color displays and sideways body handstands (which is really cute).

When I have noticed them in the act it has been anywhere between 2-4 weeks, before I find new eggs.