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View Full Version : Masobe elevated to Cites 1



Afelinus
09-29-2006, 02:14 PM
Wish I wouldve kept a few around. :roll:

mat.si
09-29-2006, 03:02 PM
When did this happen?
Where did you read this, Marcus?

Regards, Matjaz

Afelinus
09-29-2006, 03:24 PM
Its not in effect yet,but is in the works.Monkey talked to me about it.He has an exporter on Mad. that gave him this info.

Riverside Reptiles
09-29-2006, 06:00 PM
Marcus, can any be snatched up before this takes affect? I know you were considering acclimating a bunch to resell at some point. Are you in any position to do this before the status actually changes? I'd be down for buying some from you if you were still into that idea.

Afelinus
09-29-2006, 06:10 PM
Trying to find this very idea out.If I can,I will.

Riverside Reptiles
09-29-2006, 09:55 PM
Trying to find this very idea out.If I can,I will.

If you do, I'm in.

kanopy
09-30-2006, 10:49 AM
At least a good news with that species, when you see all the specimens that have been imported and the success that has followed...
Hopefully a few breeders have had success (at least here in europe but maybe also in the US that I'm not aware) and maybe they will be able to offer some specimens to seriously involved people in the future.
Fred

Protean
09-30-2006, 11:17 AM
Correction. They are on the National Protection list as a Category 1, Class 1 species.

To quote my guy... from an email sent yesterday 9/29/06

"Paroedura masobe is no longer allowed for export, it is a category 1, class 1 animal now, same protection class as lemurs and radiated tortoises.
No, it is the national protection list but it means they can not be exported
any more. Even if an exporter would be stupid enough to try and get through, you would be in trouble in the USA receiving them because of the Lacey Act that forbids imports of species protected in their countries of origin, even non CITES.

It came as a surprisre to me too. The law was signed back in June already
but no body knew about until yesterday.

The ban is justified I would think, they are hard to keep (wc) and are
becoming increasingly rare because people were exporting them for the general pet trade."

So not CITES but equivocally a similar type of protection service.

Sorry ya'll. They are a no trade species now from the wild. Bums me out because a good size chunk of my shipment was masobe. now I have to adjust it. Stumpffi and androyensis now.

Cheers
Jason

sune jensen
09-30-2006, 02:11 PM
Like kanopy said I fell that it is a good thing that these are now protected. I fell that if WC did not constantly come in and drepressed the price, then they would be worth much more and more of the skilled guys would do a more seriuos try and....we would probably begin to see some CBs. The history of herping seems to proove that almost anything can and will be bred if the value is high enough,

Just one thing, I really think people who now have them should try to register their animals with their national authorities, so that the can proove they had have had them for a while, if and when cites status is elevated in the future. If they register and get paper now, they wouldnt get in trouble in the future.

monkey, sorry about your shipment :(

Sune

Protean
09-30-2006, 02:43 PM
All you need is to have a copy of your receipt from when they were purchased. the importer is bound to keep the import documents.

Cheers
Jason

mat.si
09-30-2006, 03:35 PM
This protection is a very good thing. It was actually just a question of time and I'm not surprised that it happened.

It was really sad to hear about so many of the imported specimens dying within a short period of time.
WC specimens were definitely too cheap and so a lot of them went into inexperienced hands.
The only unfortunate thing is, that some serious, experienced people didn't manage to acclimate some more wc animals and build a bit bigger captive population, before the exports stopped.

I believe that there is not a lot of thriving masobe in captivity, which is specially sad, considering that rather large numbers were imported over the last few years.
And the true captive bred population is even smaller. I still haven't heard of anybody else with any real breeding success.
That's also the reason I decided to keep even more of my cb animals for myself and build an even bigger breeding group.

I believe that true cb specimens will finally have the value they deserve.
Specially considering the prices of some Australian geckos, that are not so rare in captivity at all and not really that hard to breed as well.

On the other hand Iím glad that masobe were not actually put on cites I list.
Considering my previous experience with our wildlife authorities, Iím afraid that the first thing they would want to do, when I would inform them, that I have cites I animals, they would want to put microchips into them. :shock: :x :cry:

Matjaz

Afelinus
09-30-2006, 03:43 PM
I am truly regretful I didnt act sooner.As you stated Matjaz,my intent was to acclimate a large group,and put them exactly into the hands of experienced breeders.I found them quite easy to work with,and believe the trio I acclimated are doing fine today.Truly a missed oppurtunity,yet from a naturalist point of view,I celebrate the move by their govt as long as they protect their natural range also. :)

geckoboy
09-30-2006, 06:32 PM
I found them quite easy to work with,and believe the trio I acclimated are doing fine today.

Yes Marcus, they are doing very well. They are an amazing species. I just want to give them plenty of acclimation time (I am over cautious about these things!) before putting them together for breeding. One of the females is still a bit younger (smaller) so I would like to get her full grown before breeding her as well.
My first breeding attempt will probably come in February and I will let everyone know of any progress.
I agree, from a naturalists point of view, the protection of this species is obviously needed. Let's just get to work on establishing CB's so more of us can enjoy this amazing gecko.
Nathan

Afelinus
09-30-2006, 06:36 PM
Great news,Nathan.You have a good start,and hopefully youre successful.I think it will turn out well for you and the geckos.Keep us informed.

Protean
09-30-2006, 08:26 PM
Specially considering the prices of some Australian geckos, that are not so rare in captivity at all and not really that hard to breed as well.

I have a number of species that fit this description and its sad to see this as a major problem.

Bowfinger
10-13-2006, 01:51 AM
Just seen this post after showing Monkey interest in them. I really wanted to get some and seen this coming. Now how to trade overseas for better stock??? this really is bad news for the species and us breeders in my opinion. I failed at granted two unhealthy individuals and have wanted this species ever since :cry:

Jaguar Gecko77
10-14-2006, 03:14 PM
I also must agree that this is a good thing it will not only take pressure off wild cought animals, but will also put pressure on those who have them to breed them and take better care of their animals. Granted there are those who care for their animals with great effort there are so many more who are ignorant of care or don't have time or simply just arn't involved enough. This i feel will solve the problem of people who buy them just to have a "cool lizard". Also this leaves us in the more than capable hands of GOOD CB breeders! So while im bummed that some day i will pay up the wazoo for them i am excited that they will still be in the wild for my future kids to read about! :lol:
Keep up your work all you breeders out there we need you now heh.
David-

geckomaster
11-02-2006, 01:06 PM
I'm mildly confused. I've read here that this went into effect in June, yet they still seem to be legally imported into the states (hoping to acquire a pair myself) by more than one dealer. I also heard from another dealer (that imports fairly seriously) that it hasn't gone into effect yet, but is just being discussed. Does anyone have the details to this, or a link to someplace where it can verified?

Thanks for any help,

Mark

Afelinus
11-02-2006, 02:37 PM
I share your confusion.I did hear that quotas were drastically reduced,and can only take what is being told to me,and attribute that to the inflated prices I saw on several exporters and wholesalers lists.Really wonder about this whole situation and exactly where you would find the facts regarding it. :?:

Levi's Reptiles
11-02-2006, 02:51 PM
Im almost possitive that it takes affect in january i spoke to a importer and thats what he said. So from that this is most likely the last year we will be able to recieve them. Its sad but only very few people have been able to take care and breed this great gecko. I would rather have this happen before they go exstinct because like i said they are a very interesting gecko and very different. And there one of my favorites. Hope this helps

geckomaster
11-02-2006, 02:55 PM
That would explain why we can still import them :D I've actually gone and e-mailed the Madagascan government office of the environment in hopes of getting an actual answer. There's a little too much of "I heard from" and I think we'd all like to know what the official word on this is. Though it is a government office so by the time I receive an answer the country may be underwater from global warming and the whole exporting issue will be moot. It's worth a try.

Levi's Reptiles
11-02-2006, 02:57 PM
It sure is

geckomaster
11-02-2006, 03:00 PM
Okay, message came back undeliverable. I can't translate the government's website, but maybe someone here can navigate it and get to the proper person for an answer. Though ebi's guy is probably correct as the first of the year would make sense.

www.madagascar.gov.mg/

Afelinus
11-02-2006, 03:03 PM
I can say that one major wholesaler had his exporters list,with a quota of less than 40 Masobe for the year.Thats probably what this individual has left on his original quota,and then nothing is allowed after that.I can say the prices were crazy,and so were several of the quotas proposed.This would send the Uroplatus market skyrocketing immediately.Im glad I do not routinely deal with Madagascar,because thats alot to lose if something goes wrong in a shipment.

Afelinus
11-02-2006, 03:08 PM
Ask Monkey to elaborate when he gets on.He has some very credible information regarding this subject.Its pretty sad to see,actually.Uroplatus will probably be like Parsons are now.I remember 10-12 years ago when you could get several species of chameleon and phelsuma that now are untochable.

geckomaster
11-02-2006, 03:12 PM
What percent of an increase are we looking at with the uroplatus out of curiosity. I've never worked with them and probably won't, but I am interested in what's happening with them as well.

Afelinus
11-02-2006, 03:19 PM
I will pm you some of the amounts I saw,and what they were in the first part of the year verses now.

geckomaster
11-02-2006, 03:29 PM
Thanks, I appreciate it.

Protean
11-03-2006, 01:13 PM
I will not give out the prices on here but I will elaborate as far as I can.

According to my exporter, well known and trusted as he is, his quota was filled for the 2006 spring/summer season and then the 2006 rainy season. Once the Rainy seaon quota has been filled, which is right now, he will not be allowed to export them anymore. Translation - the regulation takes effect immediately from his perspective.

Now pricing... Prices are 200% last years prices. This means that what would wholesale in the states for say X amount is now going to sell for 2x the amount. This is because the quota has dropped significantly.

GeckoMike
11-04-2006, 02:45 AM
There is a lot of "he said she said" going on with this. Can any one produce any document on this? If not it just seems like clever way to jack up prices on the geckos that may be hard to get. So you may want to take a closer look at your exporter if you are an importer or the importer that is selling them if you are a buyer.

I have not heard any thing form my exporters on this as of today the masobe are still on my list. If they where going to be closed out you would think that some one who makes there living collecting and selling them would know about it. Right?

All I have to say is donít believe the hype until you see it on paper. I remember a year or two back there was a big scare that Uroplatus where "going to be removed from the able to export list" and yea that never happened.

So I say show me.

Protean
11-14-2006, 01:10 PM
As quoted direcly out of an email.

"As I said earlier, Paroedura masobe have become a category I, class I
protected animals which is the same class and category as lemurs, Geochelone yniphora and Acrantophis boa's. I attach a page of the protected species list with this email on which you can see for yourself that Paroedura masobe is listed. The law in question is "decret No.2006-400, portant classement des especes de faune protege". Now of course people still export them and people that don't mind to take some risks in the USA still import them but it is very illegal. The exporter risks heavy penalties but also the importer in the USA because you have the Lacey Act that prohibits importantion of species protected or not allowed for export in their countries of origin. The text of the Lacey Act if you don't have it already is available online."


Find this law and translate it.
"decret No.2006-400, portant classement des especes de faune protege"

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i166/ebanaui/Appendix1.jpg

geckomaster
11-14-2006, 03:39 PM
That's very helpful information, but I'm still a little confused. I have an opportunity to purchase some of these animals, but want to do so fully informed, thus the following. To begin, upon perusing the Lacey Act it appears to be in the context of U.S. and tribal law and doesn't mention the protected status of other nations. I've spoken with U.S. Fish and Wildlife department and was informed that the restrictions they go off of are strictly according to CITES when it comes to animals imported from other countries. I was informed that if they are not on the CITES list then all that is needed is the proper documentation required of animals imported for commercial sale/resale. (Maybe this is where the Lacey act violation is, in that U.S. law in regard to importation is being breached by not having the proper paperwork from the exporters. This would make sense if they were illegal to export in their country of origin.) The fines I saw in the actual act were in excess of $10,000. That seems like a large risk for animals that will only fetch between $150 and $300 a piece, many of which are arriving through respected individuals. Any elaboration on the Lacey act, importation requirements, and Madagascan law in regard to the exportation, if any, of Class I animals from anyone would be highly appreciated. Also, this may be a great thread for the ethics forum, in regard to the responsibility of the community in owning/importing species that are threatened in the wild...legal or non, a question I struggle with myself.

thanks for any clarification,

Mark

the moof
11-14-2006, 05:19 PM
Monkey, that picture arouses quite a few questions:
Paroedura homalorhina? What's that? I've never heard of it. Anyone have any info?
Amazing, there are literally thousands of endemic critically endangered species of reptile in Madagascar, yet only 9 are CITES 1. Am I to take it, judging by what you said Monkey, and not what is shown, that there are far more in CITES 1 than are indicated? My next point was to be why yniphora and so many other species arent on there. Is there any way of procuring the extended and complete list?
Why is it that such a large number of frog species (genus Boophis and Mantidactylus) are protected? How are they more worthy? A very interesting question, though nothing to do with this topic.
(also, is it just me or is Paroedura spelt wrong on there?)

I think, on the whole Mark, you should consider yourself lucky. Living in Switzerland, the laws are MUCH more binding, almost impossible to understand, and therefore importing animals, even CB from other countries, is almost impossible. It is however interesting that careful analysation of the laws, and asking the right people can clarify so much. I believe I might be able to help in terms of the Malagasy laws, but it could take some time. I too am curious.

best regards,

Mark

geckomaster
11-14-2006, 05:38 PM
Thank you Mark,

This has been an interesting post, especially with the timing of various imports lately it appears that there is much ambiguity :? I too would like to see the extended list as my surfing led me only to a french decree for 2006-400 which of course had nothing to do with a madagascan gecko. My interest for the list is strictly from a legal standpoint mind you, and is not a question of authenticity. I'd simply like to be able to use it during discourse with USFW on what the legal status of these animals are. As I mentioned, various importers are receiving and have sold or are selling them, so maybe the legality isn't at issue, in which case I'd like to purchase some. Then again, if there is an issue, as a responsible consumer I'd like to be aware. The more information in verifiable form we can get the better.

Protean
11-14-2006, 06:00 PM
seriously... this again is not a cites 1 list. this is what is on a no trade policy listing from the island government not from CITES. CITES is an independent organization from their government. Many countries have this in place.

I'm not gaining a thing by posting this other than grief and frustration, go do the research yourself if you really want to waste my time.

GeckoMike
03-02-2007, 11:59 AM
Now here is something strange...Jonathan and I just got 10(5.5) P. Masobe in last night...

Even stranger is my exporter has said nothing about them not beeing able to expot them any more. Infact I am ordering more because I asked The Fish and Wildlife inspectors ( whos job it is to know these things) about it and they said there where no restrictions on them at all.

Interisting isnt it?

Should I insert a pic?

geckoboy
03-02-2007, 03:13 PM
Interesting isnt it?

Even more interesting are the prices people are now paying based on this yet to be proven information.
$100-$150 each before this 'news' to now where we're seeing pairs at $500-$800. Why anyone would pay this amount of $ for WC geckos that have a reputation for not doing well in captivity is beyond me.
If they were CB geckos, I would agree with such pricing as they are an amazing gecko. I should hope with some time that we can establish a captive population of masobe and avoid altogether the difficulties associated with WC specimens. Good luck to all those trying to accomplish this goal.
Anyone with concrete proof as to the status of masobe??

Psycoreptile
03-02-2007, 05:58 PM
[quote="GeckoMike"]Now here is something strange...Jonathan and I just got 10(5.5) P. Masobe in last night... ]

Let me know if u plan on selling any of them i would be real interested.

Thanks a bunch
Jason

klondike4001
03-03-2007, 12:17 AM
They are for sale, pm or check the for sale forum for details.

Precision Herp
03-03-2007, 12:11 PM
Even more interesting are the prices people are now paying based on this yet to be proven information.
$100-$150 each before this 'news' to now where we're seeing pairs at $500-$800. Why anyone would pay this amount of $ for WC geckos that have a reputation for not doing well in captivity is beyond me.
If they were CB geckos, I would agree with such pricing as they are an amazing gecko.

agreed :x

spidergecko
03-03-2007, 02:11 PM
Interesting isnt it?

Even more interesting are the prices people are now paying based on this yet to be proven information.
$100-$150 each before this 'news' to now where we're seeing pairs at $500-$800. Why anyone would pay this amount of $ for WC geckos that have a reputation for not doing well in captivity is beyond me.
If they were CB geckos, I would agree with such pricing as they are an amazing gecko. I should hope with some time that we can establish a captive population of masobe and avoid altogether the difficulties associated with WC specimens. Good luck to all those trying to accomplish this goal.
Anyone with concrete proof as to the status of masobe??

Put part of the blame on the sellers. Buyers make assumptions that the vendor paid more for his animals and therefore needs to sell for more. If the vendor is buying animals at the same cost but jacking up his price to make a bigger buck I might question the ethics. People will pay what they need to pay to get what they want. If no one can find the animals for less than what importers ask, there really is nothing the buyer can do.

GeckoMike
03-04-2007, 12:51 AM
Mike I have to disagree with you on that one.

If you as a business man had an item that was selling by your compeding sellers for 2-3X what you where selling it for you would raise your price. It works the same way as if it where lower then your price. That is just basic market value.

I agree that the geckos are expencive but so is a BMW and it is no better or worse than a Honda it is just the market value is higher.

As you know market value is set by the consumers not the seller. If people are willing to pay $300 for a gecko then the people selling them are going to sell them at $300.

Also you have to take suply and demand in to account as well. If an animal is hard to find it is going to be more expencive. Look at the nintendo Wii they are stil selling on ebay for way too much and it is way past Christmas time.

Reading this it seems like I am comming off as rude that is not my intention so please dont take it that way. I am just posting a diffrance of opinion.