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View Full Version : UV use vs. supplementing



yuri
10-15-2006, 12:30 AM
I don't think Leann and Greg are the only Phelsuma keepers who don't use UV lights.

If you don't use UV lights, try getting bulbs with a high CRI (color rendering index) rating to help show off their colors and allow them to see things almost the same as in real sunlight.

Either way, UV or not UV, make sure your supplementation follows accordingly. Calcium with vitamin D3 for non UV geckos and Calcium without the D3 if you are using UV lights or keeping them outdoors.


Whats her name doesn t use UV lights though so I would pound that girl with UV light and give her a bunch of calcium before you get her producing eggs. Maybe even put her in the sun now and then for a bit outside (but dont fry her).

Palex134
10-15-2006, 10:45 AM
Thanks guys. I could tell she didnt have the big sacks like my others.

I do use UV lights, as wel as dusting.

Thanks

Haroldo
10-15-2006, 11:08 AM
Thanks guys. I could tell she didnt have the big sacks like my others.

I do use UV lights, as wel as dusting.

Thanks

You're really playing with fire Peter if you're using Calcium w/D3 in addition to UV...

Palex134
10-15-2006, 11:20 AM
Thanks guys. I could tell she didnt have the big sacks like my others.

I do use UV lights, as wel as dusting.

Thanks

You're really playing with fire Peter if you're using Calcium w/D3 in addition to UV...

by the time they find the crickets, a lot of the dust is off. also, I don't ad too much to their food.

I can handle fire.

Joe Farah
10-15-2006, 10:27 PM
Everyone has there way of doing things... No offense to those who don't use UV.

JBReptiles
10-15-2006, 11:46 PM
For thouse of you who dont use UV and use calcium.How often do you use the calcium with D3?Ive been useing it 3 out of 4 feedings.And they all seem to be doing good with it.

Joe Farah
10-18-2006, 01:45 PM
I think if you don't use UV and just try to suppliment with vitamin D3 that you are playing with fire. I don't claim to have any idea how much D3 is just enough for each of my geckos and I can't imagine you guys know either.

If you want to keep diurnal lizards without UV lighting then you'd better know a hell of a lot about reptile nutrition, chemistry and biology.

Thats just my 2 cents - Im not trying to start a debate about this or criticize any of you guys who don't use UV. Its just that I wouldn't feel confident in my ability to suppliment perfectly.

Haroldo
10-18-2006, 08:23 PM
I've been feeding 3-4 times a week and have great success doing so. I provide 2:1 ratio (repcal w/D3 to herptivite) and my specimens are robust and produce well for me. There's is no way to figure out precisely any species needs for nutrition as every animal is different (metabolic rates for example). I do agree with Joe here that different things tend to work for different people...but that does has its limits. For example, it is of no controversy that vitamin D3 in high levels is toxic. Offering UV light allows the animal to synthesize its own vD3 in regulated amounts. All I am saying is that providing a dietary form in addition can be deadly.

Joe, I'm also not sure if what you say about Leann is fair. She and Greg have a larger collection than most in the U.S.. I think this assertion may have to do a bit with scale and not so much husbandry. Defects show up more prevalent when you're working on a larger scale. I have bought animals from her and Greg and they have been nothing but healthy, robust and perfect.

This is just my 2 cents.

Palex134
10-18-2006, 08:24 PM
Joe, I'm also not sure if what you say about Leann is fair. She and Greg have a larger collection than most in the U.S.. I think this assertion may have to do a bit with scale and not so much husbandry. Defects show up more prevalent when you're working on a larger scale. I have bought animals from her and Greg and they have been nothing but healthy, robust and perfect.

This is just my 2 cents.

well said, I agree 100%

Brandon Parry
10-18-2006, 09:26 PM
From what I understand UV bulbs only produce suffcient amount of UV for 6-10 months and they only produce a suffcient amount of UV at distances shorter than 6-8 inches. With that said, to me it's not a very cost effective way of providing a UV source.

I have kept reptiles for over 10 years and have never had a calcium related issue as far as dusting, over dusting or UV lighting.

My opinion is that I think it is very possible to keep diurnal animals without a UV light source and keep them healthy.

Joe Farah
10-18-2006, 11:33 PM
Well Leann isn't here so we shouldn't be talking like this. Its all me and I apologize, but there are a few things I need to say before I stop posting on this thread - so you guys don't think I'm just being a jerk for no reason:

-- I bought 4 Phelsuma klemmeri from Leann in 2005. Not only that, but there were 2 adult females in there. One about 1.5 yrs old and another as old as Peters! Could this be more directly relevant to his situation? Same breeder, same species, same sex, same age... wow. I told Peter to give her some sun because the older female that I got from Leann (who I could tell had been bred for at least a cycle but was still supposedly only a year and a half old) was already newly gravid when I received her but only with one egg. She showed signs of calcium deficiency. After that she dropped a set of slugs during which she got partially eggbound. I then put her in an enclosure by herself, but she became gravid again soon and this time she got eggbound and died :evil: I was upset because I felt like she was in bad shape when I got her. I watched her die and it sucked.

The second female was kept from males until she was good and mature - with that big mature female look, you know the big calcium sacks and all... She had a good season this year and produced some nice babies for me, but she is already showing signs of being worn out and I think she will have problems with egg laying for the rest of her life because she wasn't given UV and/or supplimented properly as a juvie. I recently offered her to someone for free because I wouldn't feel right about charging someone a lot of money for an animal that I dont know is going to do well.

Oh yeah, and Leann wanted to sell me 2 other juvie P. klemmeri that had bone deformities. SHe offered me a whopping $ 5 dollars off the price of each imperfect animal :shock:

And it was about 3 months after I paid her that she finally shipped the geckos because she was paranoid about the weather being too cold.

Now that being said, I don't dissagree that you guys can keep Phelsuma happy and healthy without ever giving them UV exposure. But I don't care if it can be done. What I care about is, "What is the BEST way to keep them?" So the debate is not whether you can keep them alive, healthy and productive without UV. We know you can. The question is which is the best way to do it? With or without? Someone please tell me why they think keeping them without UV and relying on you to suppliment them perfectly is BETTER than keeping them with UV. I agree Haroldo that too much D3 is equally as dangerous as too little, but I think with a breeding female you would have to be an idiot to overdose her. Plus I never mentioned that Peter give her D3 at all. I just said give her calcium and UV.

Thats all for me - anyone else wants to keep this going for some reason you can PM me with it.

For the record I use UV and just dust lightly with calcium and D3 powder every few days with the breeding females and juvies. I make sure not to overdue it with the suppliments when Im using UV.

Palex134
10-18-2006, 11:36 PM
Ken,
this is why I continue to us UV. I did notice she had an imperfect P. breviceps that was kinked all over. Well said Joe. I am sorry for your loss on the klemmeri.

Joe Farah
10-18-2006, 11:58 PM
Yeah sorry you guys, but I would much rather spare Peter from the same kind of experience I had than spare Leanns feelings.

And Haroldo -

Joe, I'm also not sure if what you say about Leann is fair. She and Greg have a larger collection than most in the U.S.. I think this assertion may have to do a bit with scale and not so much husbandry. Defects show up more prevalent when you're working on a larger scale.


They may have one of the largest collections in the US but they don't produce many more than me and my tiny collection of klemmeri and grandis. I've never had a deformity. The reason is because its rare to get a deformity thats genetic ( 1 in many thousands) and for me to get even one would be unlikely. Leann gets many but only has a few times my production levels. What that tells me is that Leanns problems are caused by her and not the nearly impossible chance that she is the victim of many undesirable random mutations. Its not uncommon at all to get deformities as the gecko grows and its bones don't form properly. Its her husbandry, and if you ask me its that she can't suppliment each of those many animals correctly. I don't think anyone could. I say let the geckos body decide how much to intake by using UV, a varied diet, and modest supplimentation.

I also don't like when people talk about keeping Phelsuma without UV around the younger guys, because they don't have tons of $$$ so they are easily pursuaded not to spend $50 on a light bulb if they dont think its important. But they don't have the experience to be manually controling the amound of D3 their gecko is taking in. I sure don't.

JBReptiles
10-19-2006, 12:19 AM
Hey,
Ive not been keeping Phelsumas for too long.But ive recently put calcium dishes in with my breeding animals.That way they can go down and lick some up.And i have recently seen my female grandis do that after a feeding.
So i give my animals regular heat lights.And calcium dishes(for breeding females)and dusted crickets and add some calcium in with their fruit mix.And so far its been good.Ill get back to you guys in about a year and see how this is working.You can keep geckos with out Uv.Just need to supplement correctly.And im proving it to be true.

;)
Though i might be getting some uv bulbs to test out.

Palex134
10-19-2006, 06:37 AM
Thats what I think I will do JB, but continue to use my UV. A friend of mine keeps a calcium dish with his grandis, and they drink the moist calcium when it is misted, so it does get some activity.

mat.si
10-19-2006, 06:39 AM
I'm not really sure, if I want to join in on this or not. :)
But I just want to say that I use UV tubes + I supplement calcium + some D3 and other vitamins (specially to females and growing babies).
Any kind of artificial UV light doesn't give even remotelly similar UV output to the real sunlight, so I think that keeping them with UV lights and not giving them any D3 is much more risky than giving them too much D3.
Calcium itself is not connected to the UV, so it's strictly dietary and breeding females will eat a lot of it from the dish.
I've been breeding klemmeri this way since 1999 and never had a deformed baby or eggbound female. All my females have full calcium sacks.
Also some of my females are over 6 years old and they still produce a few fertile eggs each year.
I think the possibility to kill a gecko with too much D3 is much lower than kill it with too little.
Over and out.

Matjaz

Joe Farah
10-19-2006, 10:29 AM
I use little plastic water caps and put some calcium powder in there like you guys. Ive seen the adult females come down and lick it up. Its definately a good thing to do, especially for breeding females.