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Bloodlines
10-25-2006, 06:36 PM
This is something that has been debated for awhile and I would like an opinion from all of you.

1. What would you consider to be the most ethical form of euthanasia for reptiles? Most seem to agree with freezing due to a reptiles ability to slow body temperature and slip off into death with little discomfort.

2. What would you consider to be the most ethical form of euthanasia for amphibians? Freezing is perhaps a bit more complicated in an animal that can in many cases survive temperatures far below freezing.


______________

Justin Floyd

Dr Alan
10-27-2006, 09:16 AM
For what it's worth....

The American Veterinary Medical Association with backing from the AARV has taken the position that freezing potentially produces severe pain as ice crystals form in the body and central nervous system of reptiles. They recommend the administration of a barbiturate by IV or intracoelomic injection to produce unconsciousness prior to freezing reptiles. There's a considerable monograph and opinion in Doug Mader's reptile medicine book on the subject of humane euthanasia for reptiles.

Personally I have euthanized many reptiles by freezing. The great majority of these animals are or were moribund or unconscious or at best semi-conscious and I didn't feel that the procedure produced any pain for them. Occasionally I have to euthanize fully conscious severely injured snakes and lizards; these animals do receive a barbiturate or injectable anesthetic first.

Bloodlines
10-28-2006, 07:43 PM
I am in agreement with you allan in the pain department. No one can ever say for certain if one animal will experience pain or "fall asleep" as many imply is the case with reptiles. From a medical standpoint barbiturates are the only real humane course of treatment. In a case such as that when an animal is in need of such an injection, veterinary assistance is the best way to ensure a painless death.

Palex134
10-28-2006, 11:51 PM
while i've had to euthanize a couple of herps, all due to birth deformities, i froze them every time. I felt awful doing it, but I feel that that was the best way to do it. I would love more ideas on how to do it, because with the number of herps I have been hatching lately, more are due to come.

GoldenGateGeckos
12-03-2006, 10:14 PM
I have used the freezer method, but I put them in the refrigerator until they were in a coma first. Since then, I have heard that a CO2 chamber is the most humane way other than having my vet perform the euthanasia via injection.

Reptiluvr
12-04-2006, 12:45 AM
How would you get barbituates for reptiles and what would be the usual dosage to knock them unconcious?

babygyalsw2
09-10-2007, 10:43 AM
I don't know how our vet put our leo to sleep as I wasn't there...but I think she injected something and it was done quickly and didn't cause our leo any pain...any ideas??

As for euthanasia, I don't think there's anything that will ever be considered completely humane. I'd rather inject them to put them to sleep rather than put them in a freezer though...

vierfleck
09-10-2007, 11:50 AM
Hello,

when i had hatchlings with deformed spine or feet,i gave them to the mother.I made this 3 times with 2 bearded dragon babies and one Furcifer pardalis hatchling.Why freeze them?In nature,the babies get eaten by older ones,too.I dont like to do this.
I would not do this,if an adult one gets ill,because i dont know,if i could harm the animal i feed the sick one.

regards

Matthias

sune jensen
11-11-2007, 04:58 PM
whats up with the freezing method....are you guys afraid to actually get blood on your hands???
To the best of my knowledge it is an old and outdated myth that dead by freezing is painfree in reptiles. Quite the contrary is true, since the first crystals will develop while the animal is still partially conscious and indeed able to feel pain. the eyes may freeze over and even start to crack up from the frost, before the brain gets cold enough for the animals to loose consciousness.
I sometimes have to kill a gecko for whatever reason. So, I take a sharp pair of sciccors, and cut of the head. I might then cut the head in two just to make sure that any remaining nerve tissue in the brain does not feel any pain whatsoever. I might see a little blood, but it is extremely fast and effective.
Other than that I suppose feedeing them to other reps might be ok, unless the animals that you need to kill are sick in any way that might be affect the predator.


Sune

bigballs
12-04-2007, 05:50 PM
whats up with the freezing method....are you guys afraid to actually get blood on your hands???
To the best of my knowledge it is an old and outdated myth that dead by freezing is painfree in reptiles. Quite the contrary is true, since the first crystals will develop while the animal is still partially conscious and indeed able to feel pain. the eyes may freeze over and even start to crack up from the frost, before the brain gets cold enough for the animals to loose consciousness.
I sometimes have to kill a gecko for whatever reason. So, I take a sharp pair of sciccors, and cut of the head. I might then cut the head in two just to make sure that any remaining nerve tissue in the brain does not feel any pain whatsoever. I might see a little blood, but it is extremely fast and effective.
Other than that I suppose feedeing them to other reps might be ok, unless the animals that you need to kill are sick in any way that might be affect the predator.


Sune


sounds like you look forward to killing your reptiles. i agree that cutting off the head can be a quick way to kill something but everyone else may not be as comfortable or as quick to kill a beloved and respected pet as easily as you. maybe show a little more respect for other methods of dealing with this situation as well as for the animals that you must euthanize. and if you ever have to put down your pet dog please leave the axe in the shed and bring it to a vet.

sune jensen
12-05-2007, 10:41 AM
Yeah I definetly look forward to killing geckos. That's waht were all in it for, isn't it. :roll:

Sune



sounds like you look forward to killing your reptiles. i agree that cutting off the head can be a quick way to kill something but everyone else may not be as comfortable or as quick to kill a beloved and respected pet as easily as you. maybe show a little more respect for other methods of dealing with this situation as well as for the animals that you must euthanize. and if you ever have to put down your pet dog please leave the axe in the shed and bring it to a vet.

Renatavaz
11-17-2010, 06:17 AM
Hello, well i have noticed that freezing is not a good way for euthanasia. So I would like to know how do you think that is a good method for eutahsia of reptile EMBRYOS? for a reseach for example, to study the development....
Thanks

jnk144
02-17-2011, 03:20 PM
I haven't yet seen mention of using a CO2 chamber. I would think this would be another more humane option. CO2 is fairly readily available, at least in the States, right? More so than barbituates, I would think, but I do not know where one would get a hold of CO2, as I never used it.

I had to put a rescued leopard gecko to sleep. I turned off his light and heating pad 36 hours before moving him out of the tank. Then, I put him in the refridgerator for twelve hours, then the freezer.

When I moved him from the refridgerator to the freezer, his eyes were closed, and he was curled up. So cold. I felt horrible, but it had to be done.

I buried him that weekend and planted orange chrysanthemums over him.

RIP Greg.

WFReptileRescue
10-28-2012, 12:14 AM
whats up with the freezing method....are you guys afraid to actually get blood on your hands???
To the best of my knowledge it is an old and outdated myth that dead by freezing is painfree in reptiles. Quite the contrary is true, since the first crystals will develop while the animal is still partially conscious and indeed able to feel pain. the eyes may freeze over and even start to crack up from the frost, before the brain gets cold enough for the animals to loose consciousness.
I sometimes have to kill a gecko for whatever reason. So, I take a sharp pair of sciccors, and cut of the head. I might then cut the head in two just to make sure that any remaining nerve tissue in the brain does not feel any pain whatsoever. I might see a little blood, but it is extremely fast and effective.
Other than that I suppose feedeing them to other reps might be ok, unless the animals that you need to kill are sick in any way that might be affect the predator.

You are correct that freezing via regular consumer freezer is painful and inhumane. It is also no longer authorized by any Animal Care & Use Committee that I am aware of for some time now, without prior full sedation using general anesthetics, except in the case of small fish. The only exception is flash freezing using cryogenic compounds, which I gather most hobbyists don't have.

But...you are way wrong on your own use of scissors to cut the head off of live and conscious herps. This to is an inhumane and barbaric practice. It is also just as well noted in the scientific literature that decapitation to a an un-sedated reptile is just as inhumane Cooper, et al. 1984, 1989.

Cooper noted that the reptile brain has the ability to remain conscious for an hour or more after decapitation.

This would be due to their obviously much lower metabolism than other classes of animal, and precisely why most reptiles efficiently hibernate, and why turtles can remain submerged for prolonged periods. Their oxygen demands are such that they can survive prolonged hypoxia, and this makes it cruel. When the head is cut off of the snake or other reptile, it knows, it feels pain, and it goes on conscious in many cases for quite some time. You also can't effectively destroy such a small brain of a small patient by cutting the head in half. This is highly objectionable. You would have done better to just use a friggin hammer!

I'm actually quite appalled at your suggested crude methodology and obvious lack of any research on this topic, playing executioner without a grasp of the consequences of what you are doing. Why are you not bringing these animals to a vet? Why are you not at least consulting with a vet to ensure your bargain basement euthanasia is humane? You should be shamed.

Just a little research on this would have given you a mountain of info on the subject.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/1bBj8eWjQZdiEM4kCaI3PcT8mPv3V74ThP5JGxlruLbkeT1aTG 7rSZSKGSYvF/edit

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:9YYO1c4XsCEJ:www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_welfare/downloads/reports_out/euthanasia.pdf+&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgJJZM-yBSKevtO8kImjrww-b6jClPqWFZ7zJCOmf9_fwuBlpBmJwSAabCWlaewOW53p-lbvl55FmePx6XYUOQy_Gb-sTJ_PkzjlGB9uANCLTENjUELZXMlelH0pgqdMTwMfpqH&sig=AHIEtbQwDBK5Iot1dewO_ZUczPd-8Fbdiw

I am a wildlife rehabilitator specializing in reptiles and a Texas DSHS certified animal control instructor. When I euthanize a herp, I use humane and proper methods such as chemical anesthetic sedatives. If you don't know what you are doing and you aren't working with a vet or taking your animals TO a vet for a humane euthanasia, then you don't need to have them. What I have heard here is completely low rent...

Riverside Reptiles
10-28-2012, 05:14 PM
Do note that you've dredged up a 6 year old topic and that the original poster is not likely to respond. CO2 chamber is the general consensus with most breeders.

WFReptileRescue
10-28-2012, 06:16 PM
Do note that you've dredged up a 6 year old topic and that the original poster is not likely respond. CO2 chamber is the general consensus with most breeders.

I was correct in my assumption that some netiquette nazi might make an issue out of the age of the thread. I think it's safe to assume that you aren't a fan of old books then and are probably yourself a youngster?

The age of the thread is a pointless and irrelevant argument. The information is obviously there to be found, and so responding to it for educational sake is appropriate...unless you want to start taking down 6 year old threads? I assume there is a good reason why "old" threads are left up here, or should I throw out my 6 year old copy of Reptile Medicine and Surgery by D. Mader?

As to what breeder consensus is, I couldn't care less. Breeders aren't particularly knowledgeable in this topic and it's not their area of practice. I'm a rehabilitator who has to euthanize injured and ill wild reptiles as a matter of profession throughout the Spring, Summer, and Fall months. Snakes and turtles hit by cars, lawnmowers, attacked by dogs and cats, garden hoes and shovels...I do this as a matter of a way of life as a wildlife rehabber.

CO2 is appropriate for mammals and birds, not so much the case with reptiles who are known to be able to hold their breath for quite some time. Again, they can survive hypoxic conditions for a very long time due to their metabolism, so your breeder consensus is not well grounded. It may be more humane than cutting off a head or using a freezer, but if you are advocating CO2 being a great and recommended way to euthanize a herp, then you just don't know what you are talking about.

The consensus among KNOWLEDGEABLE rehabbers and veterinary professionals is that injection of chemical anesthetics and sedatives are the way to go, and in some cases isoflurane, but THESE people, not breeders, should be relied upon for that opinion. CO2 can be used if you have nothing else, but don't act like it's cutting edge or something. It's just what's most conveniently available to breeders who aren't rolling any of their money into keeping a vet on retainer who could give you some iso or pentobarbital for next to nothing once he knows you.

Riverside Reptiles
10-28-2012, 07:20 PM
Firstly, you would do best to get your "netiquette" straight. If you're going to be rude and call names, you're not welcome on these forums. I didn't use the age of this thread as any sort of argument. In fact, I didn't make any "argument" at all. I simply pointed out that the OP hasn't been active on these forums in many years and isn't likely to read or respond. Not only do I own Dr Mader's book, but I've actually worked with him at several Assoc. of Reptile and Amphibian Veterinarians conferences. If you don't care what anyone else opinion's are on the subject, why bother posting on a public forum? Certainly nobody here cares about your opinion any more than you do theirs. If you can't have a proper dialogue and be part of the community, please go elsewhere as people that come stampeding in here with a chip on their shoulder and looking for a fight are not welcome.

Aimless
10-28-2012, 07:27 PM
if you refer to page 20 in the 2007 edition of the AVMA's guidelines on euthanasia, CO2 is perfectly acceptable as a means of euthanizing reptiles: http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_welfare/downloads/reports_out/euthanasia.pdf

the_sneetch
10-28-2012, 07:45 PM
Before I worked at my current place of employment, I called my local small clinic and asked them if they could euthanize a gecko for me, realizing that I lived in a town of 10,000 people. They were very accommodating even though they didn't 'see' reptiles/amphibians.

Now that I actually work at a vet clinic, the vets I work for also do not see reptiles, but have helped me out with a few geckos. They are always happy to help and do not want to see an animal suffer.

Point of my story is that most vets are nice people and do not like to see animals suffer. So if you have an animal that needs humane euthanasia, call one and ask if they'll help you out. They most likely will. Then you won't need to even consider the freezer or the scissors. And most only charge for the supplies needed, so cost shouldn't be an issue.

Also, I must echo that coming onto a board and pointing fingers and making rude statements is not going to help anyone, rather it just puts people on the defensive and your message gets lost.