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View Full Version : R. chahoua & R. leachianus



Marlies
12-28-2006, 07:12 PM
Here are some pictures of my R. chahoua ( baby's) and R. leachianus ( about 1 year old)


http://www.rhacodactylus.nl/gallery/content/Rhacodactylus%20chahoua/Algemeen/2812_chahoua1.jpg

http://www.rhacodactylus.nl/gallery/content/Rhacodactylus%20chahoua/Algemeen/2812_chahoua2.jpg



http://www.rhacodactylus.nl/gallery/content/Rhacodactylus%20leachianus/Algemeen/2812_leachie01.jpg

http://www.rhacodactylus.nl/gallery/content/Rhacodactylus%20leachianus/Algemeen/2812_leachie02.jpg

http://www.rhacodactylus.nl/gallery/content/Rhacodactylus%20leachianus/Algemeen/2812_leachie03.jpg

http://www.rhacodactylus.nl/gallery/content/Rhacodactylus%20leachianus/Algemeen/2812_leachie04.jpg

http://www.rhacodactylus.nl/gallery/content/Rhacodactylus%20leachianus/Algemeen/2812_leachie05.jpg

Reptiluvr
12-28-2006, 10:55 PM
Superb pictures! I can't wait to get another chahoua. Leachies are a little too big for me right now.

luc
12-30-2006, 08:20 AM
Hi Marlies, do you know the morph or locale from the leachianus ?

GeckoFiend
12-30-2006, 09:26 AM
Very nice shots. That leachie has a neat pattern.

luc
01-09-2007, 02:20 AM
Hi Marlies,
Why don't you answer my question, I am just asking because he looks like a mutt ( a hybrid between l.leachianus and l.henkeli) and it would be a pitty to work with them because the pure locals are very rare in europe and those mutts are mostly produced to earn easy money. Why create those unnatural hybrids while there are several pure local bloolines available in europe ? Who produced your leachianus ?

Marlies
01-09-2007, 04:00 AM
Hello Luc,

I was unable to answer your question, I had some internetproblems. So no need to react so agitated.

You can be sure that this fellow was not produced for easy bucks. They come from "De Oliemeulen", wich is a litle reptile zoo.

Also, there ar NONE subspecies in R. leachianus. So there can be no hybrids.
http://www.rhacodactylus.nl/Artikels/veranderingen_genus.php

Tariq Stark
01-09-2007, 04:45 AM
Hi Luc,

The taxonomic status of R. l. henkeli is very questionable. Thanks to the work of Aaron Bauer the validation of the status of this subspecies is not just an opinion any more as you can read in the following links and articles. Science is moving on, al we can do is keep up.

- http://www.rhacodactylus.nl/Artikels/veranderingen_genus.php
- http://www.geckosunlimited.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5675
- http://www.geckosunlimited.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5618


Good, D.A., Bauer, A.M., and Sadlier, R.A. 1997. Allozyme evidence for the phylogeny of the giant New Caledonian geckos (Squamata: Gekkonidae: Rhacodactylus), with comments on the status of R. leachianus henkeli. Aust. J. Zool. 45:317-330.

If you would like to have the article above just let me know.


Why create those unnatural hybrids while there are several pure local bloolines available in europe ?

Please read the articles and links. There are no hybrids here because there is so little divergence within this species. The term hybrid is also misplaced here. Intergrade would be more appropiate. But there aren't even intergrades. I do get your point and with other species I would agree with you. I don't know why you are so agitated but I can asure you that there is no need for that.

regards,

Tariq

luc
01-09-2007, 08:00 AM
Sorry if you thought I was agitated that's not the case, I am more worried. I think you are doing very good work with other rhac. species, so it is a pitty you are working with leachianus mutts. I am aware of bauer's work but everyone who has seen a GT next to a henkeli or keeps both species knows that the differences as well in appearance as in behaviour are great (certainly more than 5%).It's not because you have mutts, (I know the olieleulen and have been there several times and they are producing mutts), that you should interbreed the different locales because in the end there only will be mutts left. You know as well as I do that there is almost no one in Belgium or Holland who breeds leachianus so it hurts me to see serious gecko lovers as you certianly are not only working but also promoting mutts. It's intresting to notice that during the new caledonia gecko symposium(also attended by bauer) at least 4 different morphs(locals) of leachianus leachianus and 10 different locals of henkeli were recognised. Even in 1 species there can be great differences in animals found in different locals for example morelia viridis. So wouldn't it be a very sad thing to lose these diffrences between the several leachianus locals in captivity ?
I will start a new thread about this on this forum and on repashy leachianus forum.

Tariq Stark
01-09-2007, 09:30 AM
I am aware of bauer's work but everyone who has seen a GT next to a henkeli or keeps both species knows that the differences as well in appearance as in behaviour are great (certainly more than 5%).

I am talking about a 1-5 % uncorrected genetic sequence divergence. That just isn't a matter of opinion but cold, hard facts. That the fenotype in some locals is a bit different does not matter in this case. It is all about the genotype. I can see you did not read or understand the information that was given as you are still talking about "species" etc.

I am quite offended to be honest. Based on Bauers work they are no mutts. Marlies and myself are doing quite a lot of research in all these matters so this was a very well thought over disicion. It strikes me that you do not take my arguments and the data in consideration. There for further discussion is a bit pointless.

Tariq, will leave it a that.

luc
01-09-2007, 10:03 AM
No reason for you to be offended you did read both rhacodactylus books and both are talking of the different morphs and sub species. Don't you see the differences ???. They are HUGE, and if you would have had the change to work with the different subspecies or localspecific morphs if you prefer that word you would have seen that there are also big differences in their behaviour. At this point henkeli is still a valid subspecies. I did read Bauer's work and I even think it's pretentious of you to think that I didn't understand it. Bauer is a taxonomist who doesn't keep or breed leachie's. But the fact is simple you are working with mutts and whatever Bauer tells doesnt make a difference to that fact. Dogs are also genetically the same but i wouldn't cross my dogo argentino's with labrador retrievers(to get mutts). That's also the reason why I don't mix my PI henkeli's with dark morph GT's or mix my dark morphs with my type B animals. I am happy that many breeders in Germany, the USA and Italy do the same. If everyone would talk like you all leachie's would look the same in the end.

Tariq Stark
01-09-2007, 10:09 AM
It is clear that you don not know me at all. I'm against morphs, especially in Eublepharis, in all forms. I'm even conducting quite a extensive research about this subject. I'm sorry that I, based on the work of Bauer, have a different opinion. You say there is no need to be offended...please read you one post and reconsider.

Tariq, done

luc
01-09-2007, 10:43 AM
Ok just this to end it. Off course i don't know you,but you don't know me either but there is a huge difference between the eublepharis morphs created by humans and the localspecific morphs in leachies(as found in nature). That's just my point while you are so much against creating these eublepharis morphs you are doing exact the same with leachies. By mixing different local specific animals you create your own man made morph. Just like all those eublepharis breeders did. So what's the difference ???

Tariq Stark
01-09-2007, 11:13 AM
This comparison (Eublepharis) , as for your dog - leachianus comparison, don't match up. I am well educated in genetics, biology etc so I can see the differences here and trust me they are substantial. I hope that we can meet up some day in person to discuss these things, I really mean that. That is so much easier and than on a forum. And hey, then we can speak dutch :)

kind regards,

Tariq

luc
01-09-2007, 11:54 AM
Ok, once again sorry if I offended you but I spend the last 5 years putting together breeding groups of the different locals available in Europe, so you can say I feel strong about this. Maybe Morelia Viridis are a better species to compare than dogs, but there are many species with local specific morphs. Anyway we could meet in Hamm one day.
Btw great pic's Marlies.
Kind regards,
Luc

Little_m
01-09-2007, 05:34 PM
Beautiful shots of nice geckos. The babies are so cute ^^ And really amazing picture of the eye =)

cizin
01-10-2007, 09:55 PM
But the fact is simple you are working with mutts and whatever Bauer tells doesnt make a difference to that fact. Dogs are also genetically the same but i wouldn't cross my dogo argentino's with labrador retrievers(to get mutts).

As a dog and leachie person, let me ask you this. What would you do if there were only 11 dogo argentinos left in europe? How long would you line breed them before you bred them out to save the line?

luc
01-11-2007, 05:01 AM
That's completely off topic. Dogo's are man made something completely different than a local specific morph. I was wrong comparing dogs with leachies. Green tree pythons, indian star tortoises, cat gecko's or gecko gecko would be better examples.

casey
12-02-2009, 02:20 PM
[QUOTE=luc;138497]That's completely off topic. Dogo's are man made something completely different than a local specific morph. I was wrong comparing dogs with leachies. Green tree pythons, indian star tortoises, cat gecko's or gecko gecko would be better examples.[/QUO

I was browsing old threads, and just had to resurrect this one. I just wanted to say that I agree with both yours and Tariq's opinions and viewpoints. I'm well versed in taxonomy and genetics, so here's my input. I can sum it pretty much all into two words...cryptic species. Cryptic species as I'm sure you're aware are morphologically indistinguishable from one another. Genetic analysis is required to differentiate them. Genetically R. leachianus henkeli does not differ from the nominate to merit it's current (not for much longer) subspecific rank. Whereas, more than a dozen Bavayia spp. positively identical to B. cyclura are set to be given species status based on thorough, comprehensive genetic analysis. That's my defense of Tariq's views. Here's yours. I agree that locality specific morphs should be kept pure (not the R.l. henkeli, at this point in time), simply because future genetic work may identify some as unique species or subspecies. My case here being specifically the green tree python.
Comprehensive studies are currently underway that may differentiate the Biak, Wamena, and Kofiau locales as unique species. GTP's are off topic I know, but I felt it was a good species to reference for your views.