View Full Version : Leachianus leachianus and henkeli locals all the same ?

01-09-2007, 08:09 AM
I just had an interesting discussion with Tariq and Marlies(dutch gecko workgroup). I am very much against mixing the different leachianus locals and they are not because of bauers recent work. They say all leachianus are the same so there is no problem with mixing and I think it would be very bad to lose the local specific animals in captivity. What do others think about this ? Thanks for your input.

Tariq Stark
01-09-2007, 10:03 AM
I just had an interesting discussion with Tariq and Marlies(dutch gecko workgroup).

I am not here as the president from the Dutch geckowork group but just as a gecko enthiousiast. I would appreciate it if I'm referred as such.


01-09-2007, 06:52 PM
I listened to Bauers at Nathans Geckophile Gathering and from what I understood, he was saying that they are all the same species and that henkeli is not a subspecies. In my opionion it is still nice to keep locales seperate.

01-10-2007, 01:25 AM
I have never said that it is a good thing to mix locals, let that be very clear!
But since most of the animals are NOT local-specific, that is a whole other discussion. And I don't think its "bad" to mix those animals.

I've you do have local specific animals, good for you! That is always a nice thing! We just had a great oppertunity with these animals to get our hands on some nice R. leachianus and we took it.

01-10-2007, 08:29 AM
Sorry I thought since tariq said they were all the same you agreed with him.
What makes you think that most of the animals are not pure locals ? I know more than 10 different gecko breeders in germany and italy that are working with pure locals that originated from animals collected by Seipp and Henkel. Anyway I don't consider the oliemeulen serious reptile breeders and sorry but in my opinion they only breed leachianus for the money. After my last visit(4 years ago) I decided never to go back because off the horrible way they housed their big varanus species(special the savadoridii and mertensi).
Please join the discussion here
were some good arguments for crossbreeding are given.

Tariq Stark
01-10-2007, 09:40 AM
Hi Luc,

I agree and disagree with you at the same time. I know it's a bit odd but it is true. I agree with you because every effort to keep local specific lines pure is to be admired. When possible we do the same with all our other species (like A. felinus, where Marlies even created a database for). With all the species that we keep it takes years and years to create a good, unrelated breeding group. We spend a lot of time doing so. For example with our R. chahoua group we are getting an extra pair just to get an extra bloodline in our groups (wich are unrelated by the way).

My point in our other discussion was that there are no subspecies and hence there can be no intergrades/hybridization. I study quite a lot of phylogenetics, espescially the Carpodactilini and Eublepharinae phylogenetics, so I do know what I'm talking about. As I'm sure you do as well. Ofcourse I can see the superficial differences in the various locals but they only go skin deep. Geneticaly they are hardly different. And that is to whole point. They are virtually the same and cannot be compared with Eublepharis or Dogs for that matter. Dogs orginate from (presumebly) one species and are through selective breeding distilled in hundreds of breeds. One of mans major mistakes with animals if you would ask me. As you can see that is a different scenario in comparison to R. leachianus. Eublepharis is a whole other story wich I will not delf into. That would be a long and tidious story for most I think (I'd only bore everyone to tears I think,hahaha). But you cannot compare it with leachianus.

I really do appreciate that you are trying to keep your bloodlines as pure as you possible can. But when you do cross the offspring aren't hybrids. Not my idea, just recent scienctific development.

If the subspecies where valid I wouldn't even think about crossing them. And this is why I was quite upset. In all my long years keeping and breeding gecko's I always was (and still am!) against man made morphs, inbreeding etc. That's why we have breedingprojects within the Gekkowerkgroep and personal projects like the felinus- database. Only because of scientific breaktroughs (I think you can call it that) I feel that only with this species science permits it. But even so I apploud people that try to keep the lines pure. But on a grant scale it could be futile. A lot of the island locals could be and have been whiped out by hurricanes and such. They seem to be temporary and the elements do not allow them to develope.

Like I said before I hope that we can meet in person one day. Will you be attending the Hamm show in March? Maybe we can sit down and discuss these things. That would be great! On a forum and in English I find it quite hard to discuss these delicate matters to be honest. I have the feeling we aren't reaching eachother wich is a pity.

If you don't mind I'd like to keep the discussion on this forum. I just don't have the time to discuss the same thing on two fora.

Kind regards,


01-10-2007, 10:19 AM
Probably i will be in Hamm in March. So two last questions since you know much about genetics. Are there many negative sideeffects know or described to inbreeding geckos (considering you have a good bloodline with no damaged gens) in the long run. I am asking this because there haven't been to much u.milli smugled in to europe for instance(i could use almost every australian gecko) and there doesnt seem to be a problem with them. What about the different a.felinus morphs, they are also one species? How many different leachie morps did bauer examine before he came to his conclusion?