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ernie
08-30-2007, 05:56 PM
All the bases covered considering I house my male and female in this enclosure.
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k253/ernie_018/Picture083.jpg

cliff_f
08-30-2007, 07:47 PM
Looks really good. I think they will be happy. The only thing I see is I like to put some kind of hollow logs in my cages for them to hide in, but it looks like you should have enough hiding spots.

TARENTOLO
08-31-2007, 04:15 AM
I agree with Cliff, some place for they could hide in will be good, I have a "cheat" when im going to clean the viv, i cover her hollow trunk & put her off her with her favorite hiden place!!!

cliff_f
08-31-2007, 08:27 AM
Thats what I do to TARENTOLO, it works out very well. The hide is really dual purpose.

ernie
08-31-2007, 10:52 AM
It is pretty difficult to find something hollow at pet stores here in el paso, would using PVC pipe be ok to use and is there something that you can glue to it so it doesn't stick out in the viv like a big piece of white plastic would it also be possible to use bark or coco fiber to decorate it without the fear of having a mold problem

ernie
09-10-2007, 04:18 AM
So do you all think that I can house another female in this tank cause I plan on buying her in a couple of hours...

pyro4fun
09-10-2007, 11:21 AM
I think you can house 2 tokays in there, as Cliff said there is plenty of hiding spots in there so thy should be happy. you might want to rearrange a little and put them both in at the same time so your male doesn't have a territory problem tho.

cliff_f
09-10-2007, 09:15 PM
I agree with pyro4fun. You should rearrange a little so the male dosnt have a territory problem with her.

ciliatus
09-15-2007, 06:26 PM
Looks a little small to me for 2 tokays.

cliff_f
09-15-2007, 06:28 PM
Actually it looks like a great size for a pair or a trio.

ciliatus
09-15-2007, 06:40 PM
Well guess European standards are different then. By law here you would need a minimum size of 40" long, 20" deep and 32" tall for a pair. My personal feeling would rather be 40" high for such a large species.

regards

Ingo

cliff_f
09-15-2007, 06:52 PM
Yeah, European standards are alot different. We dont have "Laws" here in the US to tell us how big of a cage we need. I have tokays breeding in 18x18x24 exo-terras. They have been in there and breeding for a few years for me. 40x20x32" seems a little over kill in my opinion. I think a 24x24x24 is actually Ideal for a pair or a trio.

ciliatus
09-15-2007, 07:02 PM
Dont want an argument here, but i am def. of a different opinion.

cliff_f
09-15-2007, 07:09 PM
I wasnt trying to argue. I agree that you have a different opinion, each to their own. But I do have to say there is more than one way to keep a reptile. I am not saying my way is right or wrong or your way is. I am just saying what I do works and I have very nice and healthy tokays breeding.

I also dont know of anyone that has ever kept tokays in a 40x20x32" cage. I am sure they would love it and it would be very nice.

ciliatus
09-15-2007, 07:18 PM
Nono, not saying you are starting an argument, but saying i dont want to start one. Well at least we agree that we have different opinions. ;)

Ingo
10-29-2007, 09:30 AM
Hm,

being a tokay enthusiast since decades, I feel urged to say that I very much dislike the idea to challenge the minimum space requirements for this species. Tokays are alert, agile and quick hunters if given the opportunity. Moreover, despite their reputation they are among the least aggressive gecko species at all-if kept appropriate.
So what do I consider appropriate? I strongly recommend that a 65g tall should be seen as the very least for an adult pair (or a single adult). I have kept tokays in enclosures of all size and for unwanted reasons, even today I can directly compare tokay behaviour in a small sized (eg 65g) tank to tokay behaviour in really large tanks.
And believe me: I do see much of a difference.
In large tanks, to repeat myself, tokays are very agile, roam around a lot and are very vocal and prolific without showing detectable inter or intraspecific aggression. Since the early 90s I am keeping tokays in large community tanks (YES!). For the time being, the largest of these tanks holds about 1200gallons. Watching the tokays in there gives ultimate evidence for the truth in what I just said.
http://www.sonyuserforum.de/galerie/data/media/801/frischeingerichtet3.JPG
Kept in too small enclosures, tokays easily become obese, immobile and aggressive. Thats why their reputation is so bad. A healthy tokay not only needs space to roam around, but also a variety of shelters and hidings, a place to overlook the territory, a small basking spot (yes, tokays bask) and a mixture of densely and sparsely furnished/planted surroundings. How can you provide this in a 30g?
Try large enclosures for tokays. You will see the differences and never again cramp these gorgeous creatures into better shoe boxes.
Sadly tokays do survive long in even the smallest enclosures if only their basal needs with respect to climate and food are met.
So unfortunately a lot is possible.
But as I said..lets not challenge the minimum possible requirements. Thats not a spirit, herpetoculture should breathe.

Ci@o

Ingo

http://www.sonyuserforum.de/galerie/data/media/819/heller_tokay_0507_6.JPG

BlakeDeffenbaugh
10-29-2007, 11:28 AM
That is an amazing enclosure. I wish I had room for one. I dont believe you need to keep them in a tank no smaller than a 65 though. Mine are in a 24x18x24 Exo and they are very active and interact with each other very well. I do believe if you can provide a large enclosure then do so, if I had room for a cage like yours I'd have 4!

TARENTOLO
10-29-2007, 01:03 PM
I agree with Ingo, at the first i have a 30*60*80 for a pair, now i have mi Tokay female (the male died) in a 45*80*110, and when i saw the oldest enclousure .....:(
Many people tell my that its big enough but if i could put one bigger for her in my home i will do it.
In Spain there is no law about the maintenance of this kind of animals (reptiles in general).
Ingo, you have one of the best Vivs ive seen!!

Ingo
10-29-2007, 02:41 PM
Ok, of course the Tokay tank depicted on the pic above is almost pure luxury. Also thats my livingroom setup.
But in my herp room I also have an adult pair in what I consider to be close to the minimum: A 105 g.
As I said, I might live with someone using a 65g. But when I look at my tokays in that 105g, I always think, it should be bigger:
http://www.sonyuserforum.de/galerie/data/media/819/DSC00276.JPG
BTW: Here is the male from the 1200gallon tank:
http://www.sonyuserforum.de/galerie/data/media/819/fettertokeh4plus.JPG

and here is what I collected from that tank so far in 2007
http://www.sonyuserforum.de/galerie/data/media/819/Babies.JPG

Cheers

Ingo

ciliatus
10-29-2007, 03:20 PM
Hi Ingo,

awesome setups. I love them. And i love your Tokay babies. ;) The next time i visit Germany we need to talk about this baby. ;-)

http://www.napalm.at/priv/babies.jpg

regards

Ingo

Ingo
10-29-2007, 04:07 PM
Yes, I regularily have some true hypomelastics among the offspring of one of my females.

At the tail of this one, you see the difference, since this animal has a few tail segments with normal red, whereas most segments are hypo.

http://www.sonyuserforum.de/galerie/data/media/819/heller_tokay_0507_9.JPG

Ci@o

Ingo

cliff_f
10-29-2007, 06:54 PM
I do agree that those huge tank you do have your tokays in are ideal for a tokay to get the most out of them. I also believe that they can live a perfectly healthy and happy live in smaller cages without becoming fat and obese. Ideally all geckos should be kept in awesome enclosures like that. Also geckos can live in smaller enclosures than a 105 and be happy and healthy, It has been proven time and time again. I would actually like to setup a nice enclosure like what you have and put my tokays in that. Awesome enclosures by the way.

Ingo
10-30-2007, 02:02 AM
Also geckos can live in smaller enclosures than a 105..

definitely


and be happy and healthy,

for the first adjectif I wholeheartedly disagree


It has been proven time and time again.

The only thing proven is that they stay healthy and survive long. But happy?
...If you would collect an ethogram of tokays kept within various enclosure sizes, I guarantee, you will see a difference around the 65/100g border-and a second for really large enclosures.

However, I do not see any reason to keep tokays in tiny tanks. A 65 or 100g neither costs much nor does take up too much space. So why restrict the activity radius of such a big and agile lizard even further? 65g definitely IS small!
And I stick to the agilty point. If you do not have a comparison, you still may think, your tokay in the 30 g is agile. But If you would have the opportunity to watch the same animal in a large tank or as free roamer, you definitely would see a difference. How can a 1 ft lizard really jump in a 30g?

BTW: Tokay keepers with tokays thriving longer than 15 years in such small tanks, please lift your hands

Cliff, for how long do you keep tokays?

Ci@o

Ingo

cliff_f
10-30-2007, 11:00 AM
I have been keeping tokays for 5 years I still have the first tokays I ever got. I do agree that a tokay will be more agile in a bigger cage but.....I strongly stick to my point that my tokays are healthy and happy(as happy as they can be in captivity) in the cages they are in. Well maybe I shouldnt use the work happy, are any tokays truly happy in captivity even in a 100 gal tank, probally not. They only way I can tell mine are happy without asking them is they breed like crazy in their cages. If my tokays are stressed and unhappy I dont see why they breed like crazy. But you just proved your point you have been keeping them for 15 years so I guess everyone else in inferiror to your tokay keeping abilitys. I didnt know there was just one way(your way) to keep tokays.

Ingo
10-30-2007, 11:35 AM
OK, you are right:I think I did my point - and I still mean it seriously.
Sarcasm does not make it any better....
So, since we wont get any closer, just lets stop here and let the reader decide what to think about the way to go in tokay keeping.

Cheers.

Ingo

BTW: That my oldest tokays is 15 years old does not mean I have been keeping tokays for just 15 yrs.

cliff_f
10-30-2007, 11:44 AM
Agreed, I am not trying to make any enemies here. I am just standing up for my point to, we both have the right to do that. And again, awesome enclosures for you tokays.

Kevin McRae
10-30-2007, 01:04 PM
How do we know a tokay is happy? I'm sure the imports we all started with aren't happy in the 65 or 1000 gallon enclosures.

When I first started keeping tokays I had a male in 20 gallon and he didn't move around much and was aggressive. I then moved my tokay along with another female into a 75 gallon and they both jumped around alot, used the branches, called and weren't aggressive. Since they have been moved to a smaller enclosure (18x18x24) and their has been no change, still acting like they were in the larger enclosure.

I will agree that the bigger the enclosure the more happy any herp will be, but it doesn't necessarily mean they are better off in larger enclosure. The problem is we can't ask a gecko if it is happy, so we will never know.

When ever you can use a bigger enclosure for any animal, its always a good thing. :)

Ingo, very nice vivariums and tokays. I like the pic off all the tokays in the container! :D

I've seen Cliff's pics and the tokays seem to be doing very well in the "smaller" enclosures and acting like tokays geckos. Laying eggs, guarding the eggs etc.

Looks like your both doing a good job. :)

Ingo
10-30-2007, 01:48 PM
The problem is we can't ask a gecko if it is happy, so we will never know.



Oh, we can. Very much is known about the endocrine stress response in lizards and simple analysis of corticosterone levels already is an accepted surrogate readout.
We just have to convince a professional herpetologist to do a respective study on tokays.

Cheers

Ingo

Langkilde T, Shine R.(20069How much stress do researchers inflict on their study animals? A case study using a scincid lizard, Eulamprus heatwolei.
J Exp Biol.;209(Pt 6):1035-43

Rodl T, Berger S, Romero LM, Wikelski M (2007)Tameness and stress physiology in a predator-naive island species confronted with novel predation threat.
Proc Biol Sci.;274(1609):577-82.

Kevin McRae
10-30-2007, 06:38 PM
Oh, we can. Very much is known about the endocrine stress response in lizards and simple analysis of corticosterone levels already is an accepted surrogate readout.
We just have to convince a professional herpetologist to do a respective study on tokays.

Cheers

Ingo

Langkilde T, Shine R.(20069How much stress do researchers inflict on their study animals? A case study using a scincid lizard, Eulamprus heatwolei.
J Exp Biol.;209(Pt 6):1035-43

Rodl T, Berger S, Romero LM, Wikelski M (2007)Tameness and stress physiology in a predator-naive island species confronted with novel predation threat.
Proc Biol Sci.;274(1609):577-82.


Interesting, not many studies like that going on in Canada, haha.

wayne89
09-15-2011, 06:03 PM
Hm,

being a tokay enthusiast since decades, I feel urged to say that I very much dislike the idea to challenge the minimum space requirements for this species. Tokays are alert, agile and quick hunters if given the opportunity. Moreover, despite their reputation they are among the least aggressive gecko species at all-if kept appropriate.
So what do I consider appropriate? I strongly recommend that a 65g tall should be seen as the very least for an adult pair (or a single adult). I have kept tokays in enclosures of all size and for unwanted reasons, even today I can directly compare tokay behaviour in a small sized (eg 65g) tank to tokay behaviour in really large tanks.
And believe me: I do see much of a difference.
In large tanks, to repeat myself, tokays are very agile, roam around a lot and are very vocal and prolific without showing detectable inter or intraspecific aggression. Since the early 90s I am keeping tokays in large community tanks (YES!). For the time being, the largest of these tanks holds about 1200gallons. Watching the tokays in there gives ultimate evidence for the truth in what I just said.
http://www.sonyuserforum.de/galerie/data/media/801/frischeingerichtet3.JPG
Kept in too small enclosures, tokays easily become obese, immobile and aggressive. Thats why their reputation is so bad. A healthy tokay not only needs space to roam around, but also a variety of shelters and hidings, a place to overlook the territory, a small basking spot (yes, tokays bask) and a mixture of densely and sparsely furnished/planted surroundings. How can you provide this in a 30g?
Try large enclosures for tokays. You will see the differences and never again cramp these gorgeous creatures into better shoe boxes.
Sadly tokays do survive long in even the smallest enclosures if only their basal needs with respect to climate and food are met.
So unfortunately a lot is possible.
But as I said..lets not challenge the minimum possible requirements. Thats not a spirit, herpetoculture should breathe.

Ci@o

Ingo

http://www.sonyuserforum.de/galerie/data/media/819/heller_tokay_0507_6.JPG


i want it so bad please mail it to me in Alabama ill send you a pretty pic of my foot lol:yikes: joking aside that tank is my goal in the future