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View Full Version : Stable market or would you rather keep the way it is?



Bowfinger
09-01-2007, 06:28 PM
I feel the gecko market is not stable and has not set standards for pricing and creating a true value even if vague for some reference to go by. I have some ideas on correcting this used in other markets, but do we really want this? I know there are besides the chance of losses, there is also room for gain by getting an inside before the rest...some want to keep it that way. Let me know what you think.

jof
09-02-2007, 04:59 AM
I say no and yes, but more to the yes

The problem is that new species are very expensive first, which is OK, because we don't want a newcommer to let important individuals to die just because he wanted it in a plastic tub! But over the years, when the species is becoming more and mores established in the hobby, it would become absurd to ask 1000$ or so for an animal that is breeding like rabbits and turns out to be an excelent beginner animal.

at the other hand, i don't like the idea to see for example cresteds or so go for 8$ or so, something what is already happening with normal type leo's these days.

DDReptiles
09-02-2007, 11:21 AM
I say no and yes, but more to the yes

The problem is that new species are very expensive first, which is OK, because we don't want a newcommer to let important individuals to die just because he wanted it in a plastic tub! But over the years, when the species is becoming more and mores established in the hobby, it would become absurd to ask 1000$ or so for an animal that is breeding like rabbits and turns out to be an excelent beginner animal.

at the other hand, i don't like the idea to see for example cresteds or so go for 8$ or so, something what is already happening with normal type leo's these days.

I agree with you, I just get tired of spending a five hndred dollars on a pair of geckos just to see the very next year you can't sell a baby for $50

Bowfinger
09-04-2007, 12:09 PM
The part where you are tired of $500 to $50 by next season is my big problem as well. Some who are smart enough to make that big profit initially or those who whole"sell" out I think do not realize the loss of consumers/clients by fear of investing...unless they knew it was really just a good deal, not the standard. I would never want to publish information to hurt fresh imports and standing markets, more so I would want to place a tag that maintains the initial prices from spiking. I would also add value by giving a grading system for quality of bloodlines along with a price grade, this price grade would be open to a zone based on the species variability. It basically would be a buyers guide and will help out importers, exporters, breeders and the buyers. New imports would be unrated, or factors already evident will be considered.

Thats my thinking on this, I would love to hear ideas from other prospectives...and you don't have to be nice, I do have a spine and a brain thats open for constructive critisizm(not enough time to go to spell check)
-Shane Reaume

chadosborne
09-08-2007, 03:40 PM
As long as I work with the animals I like it all seems to come out in the wash. It seems alot like every thing that has been in vouge as of late are BROWN lizards and there in maybe the problem.
If any of you can't sell your underwoods LMK.

dactylus
09-09-2007, 03:17 AM
In many respects I both agree and disagree with the idea.
On one hand it could be regarded as price fixing or running a cartel.
The market demand for a particular species sets the price you're asking, or willing to pay.

I do believe there is some justification for it, of benefit as much to the animal as to the potential owner. The potential for a species to be so undervaled due to ease of CB. Perhaps a species that requires experience to keep, breeding readily in such care. The market devalues because of numbers, and brings it within the price range of the inadequate newbie, proving fatal for the gecko.
I do believe that the time has come for some sort of arrangement, there should a value placed on the gecko other than the financial, and this reflected in the price.
Should a gecko be so cheap in the hobby when still regarded as endangered in the wild?

Reptiluvr
09-24-2007, 11:09 PM
It is a shame that once a large group of one species comes in and people start breeding that the price drops dramatically. It's also a shame that such a simple species as R. ciliatus collects such high prices for animals that don't have proven genetic traits. I personally would like to see greater stability with species from areas of little or no collection such as Australian and South African geckos. This actually seems to be the case with most of the above mentioned genera. I agree with dactylus that species that are difficult to keep shouldn't have low prices for newbies. Why should so many Holodactylus africanus die every year to people who don't know how to keep them?

BlakeDeffenbaugh
09-30-2007, 12:51 AM
I agree that there should be some sort of price rage set. Could be a varied price. I know we're talking about geckos but look at ball pythons. Every morph has a price range, some drop fast, some stay a constant price that hardly drops over time. It took the albino ball what. . . 10 years or so to drop under 1k? as where it took the mojave like 2 years to drop to 500 bucks. I know these are the same animals just different morphs but still the same concept. I think there should be some sort of constant price range for the animals. In one week I seen Phelsuma standingi from 200 down to 45 bucks. There should not be that much of a market fluctuation on that animal. I paid around 130 for 2 standingi after talking her down. I feel I got a good deal because they were worth it. But there should not be a 155 dollar difference between 2 different people. I've been seeing this alot and I agree 100% there should be some sort of set estimating range for the animals. Say your sellin standingi and want a gauge somewhere between 90-120 would be a great place to put them, not saying thats what it should be just using it as an example.

chadosborne
09-30-2007, 09:35 AM
ten years ago I sold standingi for $45 babies/juvies. Today I sell them for $45 thats what the market will bear. Ten years ago I could wholesale every leopard gecko I produced for $18. Now I can buy adults for $7. Now on the filpside I can wholesale every grandis for more than I use to retail them for at shows. There are varibles that effect the geckos.

*How easy is the animal to reproduce.
*Is it and attractive/pleasing to the eye.
*Husbandry(must be easy and basic).
*A significant # must be produce to create a market for them.
*lots and lots of luck.

Its hard to compare geckos and ball pythons/boa morphs. Thats a whole market onto its self. They sell and trade among them selves. EVERYONE wants to be Mark Bell and/or Pete Khal(sp). Those guys produce so many wierd new snakes its hard for the mind to comprehend. That keeps the market buzzing.

BlakeDeffenbaugh
09-30-2007, 01:44 PM
Right I was just using that as an example of a steady market. Would just be nice to have something to compare to when you go to sell animals. Hell I wish I could be like the Bells or Davis or any of them. But when you get in the animals to late it just dont happen unless you hit it big with your own animal. I'd rather keep geckos that not alot of people have and not have to drop 200K into an animal juts because there are only 6 in the country.

Docmurder
10-10-2007, 01:34 PM
I don't think there should be any price standards. I think that the american capitalistic economy will work out for the best. there is a certain line that people cannot go under and make any money. a certain value placed on the time and money invested in the animal. people don't breed geckos to lose money. They would at least like to make out even.

this is what happens. lets say for example gecko A is overproduced and becomes an $8 animal. this means people are going to get out of them because they are losing or not gaining any money, thereby creating a lower production of animals which will decrease the "supply" and create more "demand" eventually the value of the animal will come up again. or the value could stay constant if the market supports the amount of animals produced. the problems occur when too many or too little of the animals occur. basically the economy will balance itself.

aquapimp
10-10-2007, 05:38 PM
I tend to believe that the market drives itself, without any outside interference. I also am under the assumption that most of us re-invest any "profit" back into our collections (I know I do!).

Knobtailman
11-26-2007, 12:19 PM
Yeah, I agree in the way that I don't think prices should keep dropping but I think we should set a standard so that prices aren't extremely expensive but yet don't keep dropping. That's my opinion.

Reptiluvr
11-26-2007, 05:20 PM
The issue of prices dropping drastically is quite a problem. I believe this will make it easier for some to get ahold of animals that may not have diverse enough bloodlines to be in the hands of too many. This can cause much confusion as to who has what bloodline and what pairing is best for the species. I believe Hemidactylus triedrus is one of these species with a price that has plummeted but few know where the animals truly originated.

sschind
11-27-2007, 11:04 AM
They are my animals and I can sell them for whatever I want. I don't owe it to anyone to keep my prices artificially high, or low. If I price them too low, I lose out. If I price them too high I don't sell any. If you buy any reptiles based on the potential profit you might make off their babies you should be prepared for a big shock when it comes time to find out what you can actually get for them when it comes time for you to sell them.

Knobtailman
11-27-2007, 03:20 PM
Most people though just by one reptile for a pet then get more and then start breeding as a hobby and maybe to make some extra money and then as they get more they turn there hobby into a business but when you turn it into a business and prices keep going down but quicker then before, they lose money because sometimes prices drop quicker then other times but it's not fair because maybe when they were doing it as a hobby prices were going down slower or not at all.

Torin
11-27-2007, 04:21 PM
I think making some kind of list based on various factor's is a great idea. I'm tired of seeing so many animals sold for outrageous prices that I know are just made up almost at random. On the other side of the coin there are animals you rarely see being sold for close to nothing, and then of course n00bs buy them, and they disappear never to be heard from again.

Bowfinger
11-27-2007, 04:53 PM
The issue of prices dropping drastically is quite a problem. I believe this will make it easier for some to get ahold of animals that may not have diverse enough bloodlines to be in the hands of too many. This can cause much confusion as to who has what bloodline and what pairing is best for the species. I believe Hemidactylus triedrus is one of these species with a price that has plummeted but few know where the animals truly originated.

This is true for the problem directed at the species and a big problem.

As for financial problems that effect your pocket book, many people get in this for fun but more for profit even if they do not admit it. Every newbie that gets out due to unstability of the market costs us all the ability to sell and create sound breeding populations. Markets do correct themselves but people can make sale errors less costly as a whole with a study/economic understanding site.

sschind
11-27-2007, 09:22 PM
Most people though just by one reptile for a pet then get more and then start breeding as a hobby and maybe to make some extra money and then as they get more they turn there hobby into a business but when you turn it into a business and prices keep going down but quicker then before, they lose money because sometimes prices drop quicker then other times but it's not fair because maybe when they were doing it as a hobby prices were going down slower or not at all.

But that is the exact reason why the price drops quicker. The more people who do exactly what you said, the quicker the price drops. I fail to see what is not fair about it. It may be unfortunate for that person but it is neither fair or unfair.

Bowfinger
11-27-2007, 10:14 PM
But that is the exact reason why the price drops quicker. The more people who do exactly what you said, the quicker the price drops. I fail to see what is not fair about it. It may be unfortunate for that person but it is neither fair or unfair.

Fair or not, it is not good for the geckos as everything declines with the price, i.e. genetic standards, sanitary standards (disease is common in all the commonly bred geckos). I also find just by posting something on Kingsnake often lowers the perception of price and/or quantity when it is the same few individuals up for sale. It seems to be the truelly rare geckos suffering this while the common ones are hyped well above typical mark up. The public educated on this would help everyone.

Reptiluvr
11-28-2007, 08:32 AM
So the questions becomes how do you do it?

sschind
11-28-2007, 09:47 AM
Fair or not, it is not good for the geckos as everything declines with the price, i.e. genetic standards, sanitary standards (disease is common in all the commonly bred geckos). I also find just by posting something on Kingsnake often lowers the perception of price and/or quantity when it is the same few individuals up for sale. It seems to be the truelly rare geckos suffering this while the common ones are hyped well above typical mark up. The public educated on this would help everyone.

That is a valid point. As price comes down and more and more people are buying the geckos more will obviously come into the hands of those who will not take care of them properly. Whether this is because they don't have the knowledge (which can be changed) or they have the attitude that they don't care because it was a cheap gecko anyway (which, unfortunately, can not be changed) It is also true that the higher the cost, usually, the more attention is paid to the animal to make sure it gets the care it needs. Still, I don't see that as a reason to initiate artificially high prices on an animal that the market won't support. All it might do is delay the price plunge a while and ensure that it will be even more severe when it does happen. More and more people will see the price remaining stable. They won't realize that it is not because of the free market but because of some artificial price standards. More people will get into breeding the animals because they see the price remain high. Then when all those people can't sell their animals because everyone willing to pay the high prices has done so they will have to drop their prices. This sudden drop will cause more people, for whom the price was just out of their range, to jump on the breeding train because "after all, the price has remained fairly constant for a long time" and the spiral continues downward until the price reaches a point where 1. people will be able to buy them simply for pets and not future retirement investments. 2 those people who paid a ton of money for their animals will get rid of them because the the babies are not selling for as much as the are worth in their minds and they are losing money. Either way, production drops and the price levels off, way below what it was several generations before.

I also feel that there is some confusion with truly rare gecko species with all the morphs available in Leopard geckos and Cresteds. Some of these morphs, simply because of genetics, are truly rare but IMHO a 1 in 64 chance leopard gecko is junk beside say a masobe.

As far as kingsnake goes, I would tend to agree. I don't want to offend anyone but many of the people who advertise on KS are those who only do this for the money. I don't know you all so I don't know if anyone here advertises on KS but I will say that I do see some ads for individual geckos that look outstanding and are offered by breeders who truly care about their animals. I tend to see more from jobbers and wholesalers and retailers who, if the price dropped too much, would be looking for a different line of work in a heartbeat. I tend to avoid people such as these.

All in all, I would say yes, higher prices would probably help out some of the geckos. Especially those, like the masobe, (not that I have seen CB masobes in any sort of price range I could afford) that are not easy to care for. Still, you will never get people to agree on prices. When prices are the same only quality of the animals and reputation of the seller are variable. Those with less than stellar reputations, or those with inferior animals, will have to find another way to compete and they only way they will be able to is by lowering their price. And once that starts there is no stopping it until the market adjusts

Knobtailman
11-28-2007, 12:01 PM
Those with not so good of reputations should just take better care of their animals and there are plenty of people willing to give them a second chance without them lowering the price, even if it comes to coming to their facility and those with inferior animals shouldn't keep lowering the price, I mean they should keep it at a lower price then normal animals but not keep lowering it. Also I was thinking of setting permanent standards for the prices.

sciteacher
11-28-2007, 02:13 PM
While it might be a nice dream to think about having some sort of price stabilization mechanism in place, I have to agree that in practice I cannot see it ever being workable in a free market economy. There will always be those who price higher or lower than others and there's really nothing that anyone can do about it. If the demand outstrips the supply of available animals, then the price will rise. If the supply is greater than the demand, the price will fall. We can argue until we're blue in the face about what the price should be or the fact that there should be more demand for certain species, but the fact remains that the basic principles of supply and demand will drive the prices being paid for various species. Perhaps we need to focus more energy on increasing the demand part of the equation if there is a need to stabilize or increase prices. The breeder / seller has to convince buyers that their product is worth the asking price. This is how it works with houses, cars, computers, etc... geckos are no different in terms of how the market works. My .02 worth.

Gary Hamann
Ridge and Valley Reptiles

Bowfinger
11-28-2007, 03:50 PM
While it might be a nice dream to think about having some sort of price stabilization mechanism in place, I have to agree that in practice I cannot see it ever being workable in a free market economy. There will always be those who price higher or lower than others and there's really nothing that anyone can do about it. If the demand outstrips the supply of available animals, then the price will rise. If the supply is greater than the demand, the price will fall. We can argue until we're blue in the face about what the price should be or the fact that there should be more demand for certain species, but the fact remains that the basic principles of supply and demand will drive the prices being paid for various species. Perhaps we need to focus more energy on increasing the demand part of the equation if there is a need to stabilize or increase prices. The breeder / seller has to convince buyers that their product is worth the asking price. This is how it works with houses, cars, computers, etc... geckos are no different in terms of how the market works. My .02 worth.

Gary Hamann
Ridge and Valley Reptiles

Valid points and information I have already considered. The point is not to alter the price by placing it on print "this is the price" but by giving details of going prices and explain why 10 different gecko of the same species, even same color form sell for more or less. If you buy a Indian or South African species from Jon Boone, it might fetch a higher price do to his relentless work on keeping not only good bloodlines but seperating local spacific otherwise not concerned by the general market. You are honored in this system for your good thoughtful work to the future of the species and hobby. Those that are not showing proof of good bloodline fall under a lower priced general pricing typical of say pet store sales, as we know the seconds are many times dumped on them. Also import or captive bred will be considered and basically it will function differently for each species. A never before imported species might get just an sexed adult, m or f, and young or one general price while Leopard Geckos will be extensive and seperated into the typical local spacific section and the designer section. And the way house prices where fixed to go well above what the market can substain will not happen here if I am involved. I don't want to control the market, I want to stabalize it for a healthier market that is worth investing into.

Hopefully that make sense.

aquapimp
11-28-2007, 04:22 PM
What markets are "fixed" that are not monopolistic? It's simply a matter of supply and demand in my humble opinion.


"monitoring" of "good Breeder's" lineages seems pretty unrealistic. By whom?

sciteacher
11-28-2007, 04:42 PM
Valid points and information I have already considered. The point is not to alter the price by placing it on print "this is the price" but by giving details of going prices and explain why 10 different gecko of the same species, even same color form sell for more or less. If you buy a Indian or South African species from Jon Boone, it might fetch a higher price do to his relentless work on keeping not only good bloodlines but seperating local spacific otherwise not concerned by the general market. You are honored in this system for your good thoughtful work to the future of the species and hobby. Those that are not showing proof of good bloodline fall under a lower priced general pricing typical of say pet store sales, as we know the seconds are many times dumped on them. Also import or captive bred will be considered and basically it will function differently for each species. A never before imported species might get just an sexed adult, m or f, and young or one general price while Leopard Geckos will be extensive and seperated into the typical local spacific section and the designer section. And the way house prices where fixed to go well above what the market can substain will not happen here if I am involved. I don't want to control the market, I want to stabalize it for a healthier market that is worth investing into.

Hopefully that make sense.

I think I agree with the basic premise of this, which is that some geckos are worth more than others because of factors that might not be readily apparent but I guess I still can't quite picture what you really have in mind until I see some sort of example. The end goal of a "healthy, stable market worth investing into" sounds great. I still fail to see how that is achieved in any way other than the supply and demand equation. As a buyer, I definitely consider the source of the animal as well as the physical characteristics, age, sex, whether the animal is CB or WC, etc... in helping to determine what is a fair price. I will pay more for what I believe are higher quality animals. Are you simply talking about some guidelines to better educate buyers who are new to the hobby so that they better understand why one gecko might go for hundreds of dollars while another goes for $10... or are you suggesting a system that would somehow categorize breeders and animals in some sort of rating system? If so, who is doing the rating and how is politics kept out of the equation? I'm looking forward to hearing more about what you have in mind, but a big part of me remains quite skeptical that anything other than supply and demand can affect the market.

Gary Hamann
Ridge and Valley Reptiles

sciteacher
11-28-2007, 04:44 PM
What markets are "fixed" that are not monopolistic? It's simply a matter of supply and demand in my humble opinion.


"monitoring" of "good Breeder's" lineages seems pretty unrealistic. By whom?

Sorry Tom,

You basically said the same thing I did before I posted... used a lot less words too. :)

Gary

Bowfinger
11-28-2007, 06:01 PM
sciteacher (Gary),
All the above. As for politics it will always be an issue as any other similar system, thats why you incorporate "the people" into this as much as possible. If it fails politically but showed promise, others will copy the idea with better service and eventually it will work. It would be a grading system on the market staging geckos and their suppliers. It can show price arrows down or up based on recent activity with link to explination if any for this activity. I can see this making DNA testing and starting stud books as a more valuable and worthwhile option.

If you want to see something that has done this very well is look into sports cards. They have all of this. I would take that idea and cross it with dogs/horse stud books etc...the cross roads of other similar concepts into one unique plan for geckos and/or all reptiles and amphibians. It might take the fun out for some but it will better the animal I am sure.

Bowfinger
11-28-2007, 06:05 PM
I think a negative outlook on this project is what can make all our efforts useless when wild populations are gone and all we have are inbred hyper tangarine ghost eyed bong blazers to show for natural selection nature gave us.

sschind
11-28-2007, 08:53 PM
If you want to see something that has done this very well is look into sports cards. They have all of this. I would take that idea and cross it with dogs/horse stud books etc...the cross roads of other similar concepts into one unique plan for geckos and/or all reptiles and amphibians. It might take the fun out for some but it will better the animal I am sure.

How has sports cards addressed this issue? Just like any other marketable item you have your highs and your lows and people asking outrageous prices in both directions. If you are talking about grading I would simply point to the influx of bogus and generally inept grading companies to pop up. Forgeries and fakes are rampant. The small time collector has been almost driven out of the hobby.

Also, it's not an accurate comparison. In sports cards, unlike reptiles, the supply is fixed. It doesn't matter how many pairs of cards you buy you can not breed them and create more. Assuming there are more people who would want a particular card than there are cards available every time a card is sold the price should in theory go up. In the reptile world just the opposite happens in many cases. A person buys two animals and rather than the supply going down by two, he breeds them and the supply actually increases.

So far Gary has had the best idea of focusing on increasing demand. That will help everyone.

aquapimp
11-28-2007, 08:56 PM
Also... Babe Ruth cards don't retain sperm from previous pairings.

Bowfinger
11-28-2007, 10:04 PM
Well, I take it you missed the concept of not being a copy due to the obvious reasons you both stated, yet so quik to point out how dumb for the obvious reasons how dumb you fail to see the not so obvious reasons. This would actually be a more fluctuating market obviously, and be a different concept obviously. Sports cards address the issue as others said the idea is not in use with other markets, so I gave examples based on those questions.
I am out, I will go talk to my geckos about this as they will have more valuable chirps about this.
Aquapimp, your one liners are getting old and hold no value to anyone, even I am sure they do not make your pathetic life feel any closer to valuable.

aquapimp
11-28-2007, 10:31 PM
Wow, man. It was a joke. Sorry that you failed to see a little humor. Oddly, I anticipated a reply like that. I totally understand the need to do as you are suggesting for the truly endangered or threatened species, yet feel that a "regulatory agency" is nearly impossible. There is no "breed standard" for Gekkonid species to my knowledge. They are not DOMESTICATED as in some "examples" given.

I was serious, however in the fact that I often (as well as others) rotate a couple males through several females, in their colonies. This obviously hinders the "studbook" approach. It becomes difficult at that point to determine the true father of the offspring.

I can certainly vouch for the fact that many species I've worked with have the capacity to lay fertile eggs after cooling the following season, despite isolation from males.

I also think that "exceptional" specimens can fairly demand a higher price even if the species is "common". I guess "ugly" specimens of the rarest species would probably be worth "less" to most herpetoculturists too.

I'm not trying to start an argument, but I was under the impression that it was OK to voice an opinion here, as it is a public forum. I believe I've added some real-life situations that would need to be addressed before implementing a plan as you have suggested. Of course, I am open to ideas, be them one or two liners.

Riverside Reptiles
11-28-2007, 10:37 PM
I like my ghost eyed bong blazer :?

aquapimp
11-28-2007, 10:51 PM
Ethan,

Your ghost eyed bong blazer is truly an exceptional specimen:coverlaugh:. What is the best you can do on him, including shipping?

aquapimp
11-28-2007, 10:56 PM
On a serious note (phew!) has anyone used any "DNA testing" in their projects? I am curious as to the actual collection of the DNA and what costs are associated with these tests. Where are the samples analyzed?

Reptiluvr
11-29-2007, 12:56 AM
Not that I know anything about economics, but could maintaining standards such as Boone's keeping bloodlines and locale specifics top of the line help to keep prices up? And how could this be done seeing as how not too many people get to travel into certain countries to collect geckos.

Bowfinger
11-29-2007, 01:21 AM
Aquapimp, it just sounded a little sarcastic the whole time but Im not really upset, I have got like 20 projects today and bounce on and off the topic. If you where joking and all your (phew) remarks are jokes then its all good I love to joke and just need to recognize you will be here to add jokes to the topic, sort of like the clown. It will be like Public Enemy and you are Flave. As for DNA testing there are a lot of people doing this for private studies right now, and it is common in many other animals including the NOT DEMESTICATED birds.

Reptiluvr, Boone was an example but only a fraction of the idea.

Bowfinger
11-29-2007, 01:23 AM
Ethan, I like you

aquapimp
11-29-2007, 09:41 AM
:horse: "YEEEAAAAH.... boy" (said with a large pendulous clock around my neck).

No problem Bowfinger. I was simply using an alternate method to convey what I believe to be valid points and difficulties in your proposal. Since my life is pathetic, I often need to joke a little to keep me going!

The DOMESTICATED statement was in reference to the horses and dogs example.

Aviculture is however, a great example of what you are suggesting.

I will stick to my convictions that Gekkonids would be more difficult due to sperm retention. Most Avian genera currently in breeding projects with a registry; Aratinga, Toco etc. are pair bonders, making things easier to identify lineage.

I'm not certain that these stud books and other record keeping protocol of exotic birds were established to "stabilize the market". More likely, to minimize extinction risk.

I am still curious as to the use of DNA techniques in herpetoculture. Can you elaborate on it's methods, and if you are currently implementing them in your colonies?

Is anyone else using DNA analysis in their practices?

Best regards!

sschind
11-29-2007, 09:59 AM
Since you were the only person to suggest that your comparisons were "dumb" (I read through mt entire post and I can not find anything that would suggest I said that) it must mean that you have realized that the comparisons are really apples to oranges. In fact, as far as copies go, baby geckos are essentially a copy of the parents and it is very easy to produce them. I could buy a pair of unrelated geckos (assuming Mr. Boone does not breed related bloodlines together) from Jon Boone and produce Boone bloodlines that were for the identical to his. Where would my geckos be priced in comparison with his on your artificial gecko price manipulation chart?



Thats my thinking on this, I would love to hear ideas from other prospectives...and you don't have to be nice, I do have a spine and a brain thats open for constructive critisizm(not enough time to go to spell check)
-Shane Reaume

do you really want to hear ideas from other perspectives or do you just want people to agree with you. So far I think everyone has been nice, including myself, All I have seen is people not agreeing with you and politely blowing holes in your idea. In fact, you are the one who resorted to the insults and personal shots.

What I see here is a person who jumped into the gecko market without doing a little research first, got burned by the inevitable laws of economics, and now thinks everyone should help bail him out. Sorry, it isn't going to happen. Take your losses and move on, hopefully next time you will have learned something.

Riverside Reptiles
11-29-2007, 11:52 AM
Ok guys, it's nice to have some serious discussion around here. Feel free to debate until you're blue in the face. But let's make sure to keep it civil. The personal digs don't help anyone get their point(s) across. As always, if it HAS to be done, the personal stuff should be done in private via PM's or emails.
Now back to the debate...

Bowfinger
11-29-2007, 12:17 PM
It is always easier to diss an idea than it is to come up with one.

Steve, actually I have made money on geckos so far and am actually ahead of myself financially in reptiles over the past 19 years if you don't count time spent. I am sorry if you took offense to my reactions, as I believe your sarcasm had me throwing too much salt back at you, or at least it obviously hurt your feelings, sorry sweaty...that help? I never wanted anyone to side with me, but did want CONSTRUCTIVE help with the idea and not remarks from a few people I already have exchanged words with in the past. But, when you have been around here for a while speaking your mind, I guess sore wounds will apear in passive aggressive behaviour sooner or later.
At this point I could care less, and figured maybe throwing ideas out there would strike others interest in starting such a project. I personally don't have the time to do it, but did have time to try and brainstorm ideas. I have worked under conditions/companies that where in growth and in failure, I have seen and understand the draw backs of negative input...and now see it here. For now I will just keep playing the rules of the game.

Starrynightexotics
11-29-2007, 12:27 PM
I wish I had something constructive to add to this thread that hasnt been said already, just wanted to say its a great read and we should all be having discussions along these lines more often.

Reptiluvr
11-30-2007, 12:30 AM
Has the opportunity ever arisen to be able to safely release species back into the wild to strengthen population numbers? I believe N. wheeleri is pretty uncommon in the wild if I remember correctly so wouldn't it be a good idea for us to benefit the wild populations we eventually need to draw from? Tarentola gigas I believe is another example of being threatened in the wild.

Bowfinger
11-30-2007, 12:53 AM
That would be a great project. I think disease and genetics would be a part of the screening process before wildlife organizations would even consider the idea...and would be wise anyways for the sake of the entire remaining population.

sschind
11-30-2007, 08:12 PM
It was not my intention to get personal, or post anything demeaning. I have re-read my posts and I honestly don't think anything I posted, except for maybe the last one, was demeaning or sarcastic. If I did offend anyone it was not intentional. Even to you Bowfinger I believe I was pretty civil, again until my last post perhaps. I am offering an olive branch, its obvious we either do not see eye to eye on this or perhaps we simply do not understand each other. That is not a bad thing as often times it takes a bit of disagreement to get things done. I think you would agree that nothing more of benefit can come from continuing this discussion in the direction it was heading.

I do stand by my disagreement with Bowfinger's idea and trust me, you didn't hurt my feelings at all. I hope to be done with this topic unless something new can be added but no hard feelings on my part. Everyone who has success in breeding geckos has something positive to contribute. This is one of the best forums I have been on and I will continue to utilize the knowledge gained from it.

Bowfinger
12-01-2007, 03:54 AM
How has sports cards addressed this issue? Just like any other marketable item you have your highs and your lows and people asking outrageous prices in both directions. If you are talking about grading I would simply point to the influx of bogus and generally inept grading companies to pop up. Forgeries and fakes are rampant. The small time collector has been almost driven out of the hobby.

Also, it's not an accurate comparison. In sports cards, unlike reptiles, the supply is fixed. It doesn't matter how many pairs of cards you buy you can not breed them and create more. Assuming there are more people who would want a particular card than there are cards available every time a card is sold the price should in theory go up. In the reptile world just the opposite happens in many cases. A person buys two animals and rather than the supply going down by two, he breeds them and the supply actually increases.

So far Gary has had the best idea of focusing on increasing demand. That will help everyone.

This is the one that bothered me slightly by you as I could say the same, what does fake cards have to do with a gecko so obviously not my comparison. But really did not even want to address more tit for tat type of debate, I was looking for "how can this work" and where do we find working ideas to model after. After all, every other market is different yet all new markets have modeled after others in some way or another.
Also, to be honest, my remarks where directed more at Tom as I did not understand what he was trying to say,i.e. be funny, clown me or what. Maybe I will just slap him and say I am joking...is that cool Tom, just as long as you understand I joke like that to lighten the situation. :)