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ninetynine
01-13-2008, 08:07 PM
I have a young tokay that seems to be doing quite well, a good appetite and lots of spunk. Though I'd like to see if I might be able to tame him down a little bit while he's still young and impressionable. I figure the occasional gentle handling for a few minutes every now and then might work, but I'm wondering how often one would handle a juvi tokay if the goal was to tame him without stressing him out too much. So far I'll take him out for 5 minutes once a week and gently hold him. He'll usually bark and make a little fuss when I first grasp him, but usually calms down after a moment or two. I'm wondering if this seems like too little... or too much?

Anyone have a nice tame tokay that they raised? How often did you handle them?

cliff_f
01-13-2008, 11:56 PM
You should try letting the tokay hang out on your hand without holding onto him. Just keep your and in the cage so when it jumps off you dont have to chase it around the house. If you just coax him on your hand and not just grab him and hold him down it will be alot better experience for him. It is hard to say exactly how long you should or shouldnt hold your tokay. You just need to learn to read him and tell when he is getting really stressed and then put him back.

PassPort
01-14-2008, 01:41 AM
How to Tame a Tokay:
step one: put the tokay back in it's cage
step two: buy a crested gecko
step three: hold the crested gecko

that's pretty much the best way to tame a tokay.....
just razzin' you. you can tame some tokays. i'd shoot blake a pm if i were you.

'stoph
01-14-2008, 05:28 AM
How to Tame a Tokay:
step one: put the tokay back in it's cage
step two: buy a crested gecko
step three: hold the crested gecko

Lol I was planning to do this.
I don't have a problem with not being able to handle my tokays. I love their "touch me and I'll cut you up" behaviour.
To me it brings them closer to their wild nature compared with some other tame animals.
Though I still would like some animals that i can handle from time to time it's probably gonna be a pair of crested gecko's or a pair of rats :p.
But i think rats will scare away a lot of girls and that's no good :p.

cliff_f
01-14-2008, 07:06 PM
I wouldnt say you ever tame a tokay but you can calm them down it just takes alot of time and patience. I dont see why people want to "tame" them they are neat the way they are. Not every tokay will calm down for you though. I have two females I have been raising up since last year and one I can hold and get out of the cage the other will try to rip your finger off the second you get near her. Both have had about the same amount of attention but one just took to me better than the other. But if you try to tame a tokay you will have your fare share of blood shed.

Jaguar Gecko77
01-19-2008, 03:44 AM
A good friend of mine has one he tamed down. It was wild cought and he would hold it every day.(its a miracle it didnt die of stress) But when he got it to the point he could pull it out and it didnt try to bite him he made the mistake of trusting his tokay...LOL
well he has some nice battle wounds. The tokay is "tame" but every now and then out of the blue it will bite him ...hard...to let him know whos boss. The moral of the story: never trust a tokay enless your trusting him to bite you.
GL,
DAVID-

PassPort
01-24-2008, 11:08 PM
I just picked up a 2" SVL captive born tokay from my buddy's petshop. He's a little dehydrated but super mellow, yet alert and responsive/quick. Hopefully I'll have a tame-ish tokay once he's all settled in.

twitch_doberman
01-25-2008, 02:19 AM
Though I still would like some animals that i can handle from time to time it's probably gonna be a pair of crested gecko's or a pair of rats :p.
But i think rats will scare away a lot of girls and that's no good :p.

but i'm a girl and i LOVE rat! i used to breed them. amazing critters. if you do get some get dumbos. no better breed

twitch_doberman
01-25-2008, 02:22 AM
tokays are gorgeous. i've been entertaining the idea of getting one. i do love the spunkyness of them and i have my handleable animals so i wouldn't have the need to handle it... but we shall see.

rhacoboy
02-01-2008, 09:00 PM
How to Tame a Tokay:
step one: put the tokay back in it's cage
step two: buy a crested gecko
step three: hold the crested gecko

that's pretty much the best way to tame a tokay.....
just razzin' you. you can tame some tokays. i'd shoot blake a pm if i were you.

hahaha good advice :biggrin: . Cresteds are awesome, tame and are easy to breed and care for. My cousin has 4 female tokays and he has had one for a month, the others he had for a few weeks. The one he had for a month was mean when he got it and now its crestie tame! So it can happen but once a week? for 5 minutes? thats not taming any tokay. You need to spend HOURS holding it, letting it know you won't hurt it, gently, then maybe it will tame down.


Good luck

-aRmEn-

ArmensExotics

jabberwock486
02-01-2008, 10:13 PM
it helps to have a youngster and not a wild caught adult. the latter may never calm all the way down. i have had my current pair 9 months and have never tried touching them other than when cleaning. well i did poke 'em last night to see if they wanted any fuzzy action, they declined. see if they will eat them tonight.

i would make sure the animal is well kept. many hiding places, very comfortable enviroment. the less stress the better. be gentle when holding the gecko and don't squeeze or grab the tail. use gloves to take the bite. use gloves until you are sure it is tame or you want to take the bite. adults can give you horrible wounds I already have a few scars. i would say hold it for at least an hour a day.

Negator
02-13-2008, 11:38 AM
It is possible,mine is pretty tame and never tried to bit me(CB). Also he seems to calm down when I rub behind his head.
http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/1782/luc1or3.jpg
http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/1987/luc2jz4.jpg

Tariq Stark
02-17-2008, 05:56 AM
Hello everybody,

Why try to tame this wonderfull species? This is what these animals are, territorial and fiesty in general. Aren't we all in to this hobby to try to experience at least some of the natural behavioral repetoir of our animals (as far as possible in captivity)? I like tokays, nasty to any intruders, but good parents to their eggs and offspring.

Tariq

cliff_f
02-17-2008, 10:20 AM
Hello everybody,

Why try to tame this wonderfull species? This is what these animals are, territorial and fiesty in general. Aren't we all in to this hobby to try to experience at least some of the natural behavioral repetoir of our animals (as far as possible in captivity)? I like tokays, nasty to any intruders, but good parents to their eggs and offspring.

Tariq

I have to agree with you. They are awesome just the way they are, but even I have one tokay that I have worked with the "tame" down. But really I like them just the way they are.

Biotechman
02-17-2008, 02:53 PM
Listen up,
Why have a 'tame' toke? Because, it's an ANOMALY!!! I just got back from my petstore and, the owners who also import Tokays, were amazed that one could be so tame!
So, what's wrong with that????!:shock:
I don't look at any of my herps as conventional pets (ie dogs, cats), but I DO want the ability to handle 'em when I need to maintain their enclosures.
Yes, he stalks his prey, and I imagine, exhibits the same traits as his wild-caught cousins (minus the biting!).
Don't hate on those that took the time and patience to work with their animals to the point of them being 'manageable'....
Damn, it's not like it's a pit viper!!!:coverlaugh:

cliff_f
02-17-2008, 08:50 PM
I dont see anything wrong with "taming" them down. I just like them the way they are, thats why I dont try hard to "tame" them.

Biotechman
02-17-2008, 09:40 PM
It's cool, Cliff.
This wasn't being addressed to anyone. Just my opinion....

Tariq Stark
02-18-2008, 05:19 AM
Biotechman,

I guess we differ from opinion here. Antropomorfism...what you are you gonna do about it...

Tariq

Biotechman
02-18-2008, 07:59 AM
Wow,
A philosopher.:) That is what's so great about this hobby!

jimski427
02-18-2008, 09:32 PM
negatar... that dark black color your tokay is showing is stress... chances are its new and is too stressed to attack.. my male was like that the first few weeks i got him, now he got used to it and wouldnt mind taking a bite out of my hand/fingers...

cliff_f
02-18-2008, 10:23 PM
Thats right it is just your opinion.

BlakeDeffenbaugh
02-18-2008, 10:37 PM
Tokays CAN be tamed down without any threat to their health. If you dont think so then oh well. My WC adults are not tame by any means. But they will tolerate me in the cage and if I want them to move I just touch them and they dont bitch they just move and hide. I know many people that have great Tokays that can be handled without even a single bark. If you dont think its right get a hold of Kevin at NERD. . he'll tell you all more than you know about Tokays and handling them.

Tariq Stark, do you own Tokays. . just a questions.

Ingo
02-19-2008, 01:47 AM
I fully second what Tariq says. Even though its possible to "tame" a tokay to that extend that it seemingly tolerates handling, this is everything but recommendable.
Tokays do not have the ability to feel bonded to a human. On the other side, despite of their robust appearance, tokays are delicate creatures and very stress prone.
Some newly aquired tokays may be that stressed that they hardly dare to move-many, way too many new owners misinterprete this as tameness. But its everything but that.
The procedure of "taming"in any case puts a lot of stress onto them, which should be strictly avoided.
Many tokays even upon a simple transfer to another enclosure do need months of acclimatisation before acting fully normal. How much more stress must they experience upon regular handling?
I do not see any benefit of taming -except for the notorously anthropomorphistic herper- but a lot of risks.
In general there is absolutely no need to handle tokays on a regulr basis. Typically they never get ill and thus need no vet visits. Once moved to adult enclosures they thus do not have to be handled for years or decades.
Its OK, if they get used to your presence when manipulating stuff in the gage -without ever touching their hides-. That will be the case for most tokays after some time. Some will be voracious enough to eat from foreceps and many will not hide if you approach their cage after some time (sometimes years) of acclimatization. But all that needs not special "taining".
We should leave it like that


And I can tell you more about tokays than you may have ever heard of....:D



Ingo

Tariq Stark
02-19-2008, 02:57 AM
Tariq Stark, do you own Tokays. . just a questions.

In the past I've cared for several members of this genus: G. vittatus, G. ulikivoskii, G. gecko, G. smithii and G. grossmanni. Granted, I don't have these animals in my care anymore but have several years of experience with all. If I didn't have experience with these animals I wouldn't have commented in this thread. I only speak from experience and otherwise I will clearly state that I do not have experience with a certain genus or species.

It's not my intend to start a fight here by the way, just a discussion. I'm not questioning that some tokays can be "tamed" or (although Ingo brings some valid points to light) but WHY it should be done. I suppose I'm to much of a purist. Ingo actually said it all, but I think the term "antropomorfism" (also) says it all. Basicly we are saying the same thing.

To conclude, for now, I don't want to start a fight but I think a discussion would be a very nice and educational thing. I'm sure we can do that :)

Tariq

Negator
02-19-2008, 11:46 AM
I suppose that dark black colour is bad lighting, he's more than 6 months with me and never ever attempted to bite me. Also when i was carefully rubbing behind his head he calmed to the point when he wouldn't jump from my hand to his tank and should be put there manually. Also I never grabbed him or restrained, he just used my hand as a kind of branch.

Ingo
02-19-2008, 12:02 PM
In the dark or under bad lighting they are bright and not dark.

Negator
02-19-2008, 05:03 PM
my camera is in auto-ISO mode. Tried time and time again but pictures are always dim when fiming without decent lighting.

Riverside Reptiles
02-19-2008, 05:46 PM
Let's all make sure to keep this an adult, polite debate and not squabble over the little things. I find the topic to be interesting as I don't go out of my way to "tame" any of my herps. But on the same hand, I do understand people wanting to. It's a matter of personal preference (like many things in this hobby). There have been fine points made by both sides of this debate so far. So as Tariq said, let's keep the discussion going in an educational way.

cliff_f
02-19-2008, 07:01 PM
Yeah lets keep this going in a educational way and keep a open mind. Let not tell everyone that just becuase they dont keep a gecko the exact same way you do it is going to die or be in really bad health. I have see perfectly healthy tokays that have been "tamed" down.

Ingo
02-20-2008, 02:19 AM
.... It's a matter of personal preference (like many things in this hobby). ....

Sorry, but here I do disagree. Its much more a matter of balance between risks and benefits for the herps. Whereas in some cases there may in fact be minor advantages (ease of handling for necessary treatments), in most cases there is absolutely not benefit in taming for the herp. Moreover, taming procedures necessarily impose a certain level of stress onto the animal. To the unexperienced it is not easy to detect this. Stress signs in reptiles are much more subtle than in mammals or birds and easily overseen. So there is a definite risk that taming can pose so much stress on the animal that it may become ill, reduce natural behaviour, refrain from breeding or even die without the keeper even noticing that the animal is stressed. So taming can impose -unwanted but definite - cruelty to aninals.
Since reptiles by nature are not equipped to feel bonded or befriended to humans, the major effects of taming are to fulfil anthropomorphistic -or better: anthropocentric- conceptions of the herper in question.
In a nutshell: "Active Taming" only in very few cases has noteworthy benefits for the herp and most of these benefits are achieved similarily well if the herper refrains from any activites and just waits till the animal gets familiar with his presence and associates him more with food than with predation. On the other side, the necessary activities for "taming" can impose dangerous stress on the animals, which moreover is not easy to detect.
Thus I very strongly recommend not to try to tame your herps. Exceptions may be larger lizards like some monitors or iguanides which as adults may become dangerous if not used to handling and the presence of their owner.
I know that this discussion also touches intercultural aspects. The European way -or more precisely, the German way- of herping in some aspects is very different to the american way of herping. That does not mean that there is no consens and not a lot of similarity, but when it comes to handling, naturalistic setups, light technology and things like lashes and harnishes -to just mention a few- there are a lot of differences.
So to me its not always easy to navigate in forums dominated by US herpers. But I am always interested in factual discussions and after all, this environment is a chance to exchange experiences and philosophies across geographic borders with ease. Lats make use of it.

Ingo

Tariq Stark
02-20-2008, 05:04 AM
The European way -or more precisely, the German way- of herping in some aspects is very different to the american way of herping. That does not mean that there is no consens and not a lot of similarity, but when it comes to handling, naturalistic setups, light technology and things like lashes and harnishes -to just mention a few- there are a lot of differences.

That's a very good point Ingo. Here in the Netherlands most hobbyist have the same approach as German hobbyist (after all, we are neighbours). That's why this discussion is somewhat difficult. Although we all practice the same hobby, in some aspects our friends on the other side of the pond sometimes have a different approach then us. Here, on this forum, we are bonded as one large community but there are fast cultural differences that could make it hard for us to understand each other. I'm not different, I can relate better to European hobbyist then American (or others).

But back on topic. I dislike a kinds of manifestations of antropomorfism in our wonderfull hobby. From taming down geckos to the designing of animals (man-made morphs). Alas, here in the Netherlands these things are also getting stronger and stronger. The hobby is not what is once was I'm affraid. But that is a whole different discussion I suppose.

Tariq

BlakeDeffenbaugh
02-20-2008, 05:53 AM
Morphs are not "man made" by any means. They are naturally occurring and we just breed for them to continue to come out. As for everything else your all right. . . I am cruel to my animals god forgive me. . . Hey Ingo in my opinion letting your water dragons eat your baby tokays is cruelty to animals. I'm done because you two are not open to any thing in this subject but only what you want to hear.

cliff_f
02-20-2008, 07:01 PM
Wow Ingo! You are crazy and I think everyone I know agrees. I wish you would keep your crazy opinions to your self. I think you are just trying to start crap on this site. So it is animal cruelty to tame your animals? What are you a animal rights activist? I think there is alot of people in her that are cruel to their animals then since they try to hold them. I agree with Blake, someone needs to check out they way you keep your animals since you have admitted that you feed tokays as feeders, I think your credibility is real questionable. I feel sorry for anyone that would even listen to what someone like you would have to say. I really think you are just some lonely guy trying to start stuff on this site and you have nothing better to do with your life. Maybe you do need to keep a open mind and see there is more than just your way to keep a animal, its not all just about you. There is more people than jsut you that need to open their eyes a little and keep a open mind and not just put down the way people keep their reptiles.

Ingo
02-21-2008, 10:15 AM
Hi Cliff,

you are soo kind. I love you!

I hate to have to stress that that, but I am absolutely aware of what I was saying.
I even more hate to have to have to add, when it comes to my credibibility, you may ask in my home country for my reputation. Not only do I keep herps since -well its more than 35 years- but also I do have a phd in biology since 1995.
Did I mention that I am breeding tokays since the early 1980s (with a small gap in the 90s) ?
Moreover, so far public reviews on my herp books (one of the next two will be on husbandry of the genus Gekko BTW) were absolutely positive and same is true for feedback on the large number of herpetocultural papers I have written in the last twenty five years.
Also the supplements I developped for a company which asked me for that are well accepted and among the most recommended on the german market. Just google Herpetal to get an idea.
You should really believe me that I do understand a lot about the physiological influences of stress on lizard health and about the definition of stress. I kindly ask you to have a look at the respective research-there is in fact some information out there.

To give you sth to start with:

Langkilde, T. & Shine, R. (2006)How much stress do researchers inflict on their study animals? A case study using a scincid lizard, Eulamprus heatwolei.J Exp Biol. ;209(Pt 6):1035-43.

Rdl, T., Berger, S. , Romero, L.M. & Wikelski, M. (2007)Tameness and stress physiology in a predator-naive island species confronted with novel predation threat.Proc Biol Sci.;274(1609):577-82.


Having said that, I repeat two things.

First, taming of animals can result in cruelty to animals and especially it often does in the herp world.


Second, I am very open to factual discussions but I prefer discussions with educated adults and I am not keen on rude and polemic but unsubstantial strifes with kids, who are into herpetoculture since some 5 years.


Your post gives me a nice impression of your social AND herpetocultural competence.

Sorry to say that, but I did not start with it.

Ingo

Btw: If one animal is used as feeder for another, its of course cruel to the specimen affectet. But its part of natural behaviour of lizard eaters to eat lizard. Feeding live food is a part of apt keeping and variety is a key. Also the stress period is restricted to seconds and not permanent as in the case discussed.

jabberwock486
02-21-2008, 12:51 PM
The internet is full of shit. Sorry for my language, but I should point that out. Arguing on the net is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win you are still retarded. I NEVER believe anything anyone says here. Sorry but unless you provide me proof of what you say I will never believe you. It is far too easy to get away with stuff like that.

so stop with the I have a PHD, I have experience, I have had this for XX years, I did this, I know this person, I wrote this, I helped with this book, I run this site.... cause unless you prove it to me or anyone else its ALL BS. It is just far too easy to make stuff up on the net. Get you Epenis/netego flared up and it gets bad. This is one thing I liked about this site is the lack of drama and name calling I see on others. Threads like this just annoy me.

Also I don't care if you got a PHD, masters, wrote a book, own a site, etc. You can still be a dumb ass. Some of the dumbest people I have ever met have PhD’s. In my book anyone who claims to know it all is a dumbass. You have to show what you know and drop the ego. Its one thing I have learned in all my years of working with people. We should work with each other and not start flame wars.

I am just surprised to see a thread like this here.

Ingo
02-21-2008, 01:19 PM
I only summarized personal info because of Chris rude posting-I said I hate to have to do it. But in this case, I wanted to make clear my reputation to be able to prevent Cliff from producing even more damage by giving doubtful advices to fellow herpers. Obviously that does not work put. What you get is what you want. Thats a strong truth.
But you are teasing me...OK, I give you my full name. That should easily help you to find out that I did not say anything wrong about my person.
Each and any detail I gave on me is absolutely correct.
Just inform yourself about Dr. Ingo Kober (but discard hits on the ex head of the european patent office) and concentrate on german environment for this ( I am willing to exchange emails from my business address if you still have doubts with my identity). You might also have a look at herpetal.de to get started.
I am willing to share my experience and knowledge and I just tried to show you, why I think it might be worth to consider my posts even though Cliff constantly shouts me down.
So far with factual discussions.
Anyhow, I am getting convinced that here is not a place I should waste my time.
So live with the kind of information you get from Cliff and friends and be happy with it.
Yes, the internet is full of shit, definitely
Id better go back to the forums with knowledgeable and educated users-and yes, these do exist.

Ingo

ciliatus
02-21-2008, 02:50 PM
Omg,

i cant believe how childish some people act here. Calling everyone names, only attacking on a personal level and not talking any facts. Ingo made a lot of good points and even proved them with scientific papers, not his personal opinion. And there are a lot of scientific papers about stress in reptiles. People just seem to like to ignore them. At least try to read through one of the references Ingo made, before attacking him on such a low, and personal level.

I dont know Ingo in person, i only know him through forums, TV and literature so i am not a personal friend of him, but i can verify that he is a very reputable expert here in Europe. His books are well sold and the supplementation products he developed are also used by thousands of herpers including myself with great success. He is specially known for his work with the genus Gekko gecko here.

For all those that deny the fact that stress can be very harmful here some more papers:

DeNardo, D. 1990. Stress: a real but not well understood phenomenon. Vivarium. 2(5):25-27;29.
Patton, K. T. 1991. Understanding stress in captive reptiles. Vivarium. 2(6):18;36-37;39.
http://www.michvma.org/documents/MVC%20Proceedings/Labonde9.pdf
http://icb.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/42/3/526.pdf
http://etd.gsu.edu/theses/available/etd-11292006-135640/unrestricted/Graham_Sean_200612_ms.pdf
http://www.biol.vt.edu/faculty/moore/pdfs/15.pdf
http://www.biol.vt.edu/faculty/moore/pdfs/18.pdf

So please stop personal attacks and try to stick to facts.

regards

Ingo

Riverside Reptiles
02-21-2008, 02:55 PM
Ok, this thread is going nowhere at this point. So I'm going to lock it. It's a shame to see that grown adults can't communicate different opinions without turning it into a fight. If you guys want to continue your arguing, please do it via email or PMs. Take your negativity private. These forums always have and always will have a zero tolerance policy on this type of negativity.

Marty
02-21-2008, 03:19 PM
:yawn:

Thanks Ethan. Flame wars are part of all forums, but won't be tolerated here. I have my own opinions and personally one side makes more sense to me then the other, however both sides are behaving immaturely.

I understand hot tempers, etc... Sometimes you just have to leave your egos at the doors when you come here and if you spot a thread going nowhere fast, please don't fuel the fire, just drop it and diffuse it. If you must put in your 2 cents, then take it to PMs.

I truly admire people that can say to themselves (he's an idiot) and will end the thread with something benign ...why? because this doesn't need to be laundered here publicly. All of you involved should have spotted this thread a mile away as volatile, explosive and going nowhere fast.