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bigchin
01-21-2009, 12:19 AM
Hi there. I wonder what people thought about when it comes to breeding a son back to its mother. I have a 1 1/2 year old male and I've put it with its mother to breed. Is this horrible? I've done it with leopard geckos
bigchin

PassPort
01-21-2009, 12:46 AM
bad idea. you can do it, and since it's pretty much fresh blood it'd be fine, but I personally just wouldn't do it.

combadao
01-21-2009, 07:24 AM
I think it is understandable if you want to get out some new recessive mutation or something like a new look, for creating or refining a morph. Even so, you should have a plan to outcross later on.

But in a wild type species I would try to outcross as many different lineages as possible.

Geckos and Goannas
01-21-2009, 08:25 AM
I agree with combadao.

bigchin
01-22-2009, 12:00 AM
thanks for the ideas. I just recently got a juvenile import but I'm not sure if it's going to make it. I'd just have to wait a year or so before breeding. However, if any of you know anyone who has some G. to sell or trade, please let me know.
thanks
bigchin

Dendro_Dave
01-22-2009, 06:25 PM
I might have a little different take here, as i come from the Dart frog scene though have kept various geckos for years. But In the Dendro (dart frog) world it is very very frowned upon to try and breed for certain traits. Most of your serious and even less so dart froggers are more concerned with maintaining the integrity of the species or that particular color morph (which is naturally occuring). Even when its thought that certain color morphs interbreed in the wild occasionally people are urged not to do this even with rarer species that arent very well established in the hobby.

We try to maintain an animal as close to its wild cousins as possible, and in the most naturalistic environment as possible (Tropical vivaria). Some going even so far as to base tank structures and plant choices on the particular biotope of the species planned for that tank.

Im really suprised especially with the abundance of tropical species being kept that more gecko/lizard keepers arent building naturalistic vivaria instead of tanks filled with tuppaware and legos or something ;) These systems find a balance and bacterial, fungi problems arent nearly the issue that some suspect, or would be in a non natural setup where an introduced bacteria, fungi or other introduced pathogen can run amok without a natural system of checks and balances in place like in a tropical vivarium.

Inbreeding is extremely common in our hobby and in the case of frogs they have shown to be remarkable resistant to any adverse genetic side effects of this. Literally dozens of generations inbred with no sign of problems. Now lizards arent frogs, and vise versa but i'd wager that they would hold up similarly well to a few generations of inbreeding...though if possible even we in the dart frog hobby prefer unrelated pairings. But as the original founder stock of so many of our species kept was so small, and/or exports have ceased this often just isnt possible.

If this particular goni is one of the rarer less established species in the hobby it may be benificial to breed it back to the parent if you dont have access to an unrelated animal...but if its one of the more common ones, i'd hold out for an unrelated animal or just not bother.

And as far as breeding for certain traits, i know the damage is done with leopard geckos, and heck im even in the market for a mack or super snow but do we really need to corrupt every species of gecko with designer morphs? There is already a ton of confusion in the leo world...what am i getting? what do i have? what am i breeding it to? what should i breed it to? is it het for this or that, and if so then what!?!?!? My god the whole species is just one big Cluster Fu...dge ;) But they are still cool, and part of me is a lil torn cuz im curious about the possibilities even to the extent of actual genetic egineering for glowing animals and what not...but also im concerned with the integrity of the species...there is something to be said for enjoying the animal as it was meant to be in nature. Its a slippery slope.

K, sorry for the rant...good luck with the Goni! ;)

rattlesnake082
03-15-2009, 05:50 AM
Very good post, Dendro Dave.

I think that it shouldn't be a problem to inbreed geckos as far as it isn't done excessively. I remember having read an article about a german breeder who inbred panther geckos for decades (dozens of generations) with no problems occuring.

In my opinion (especially when you're going to breed a rare species), it's much better to produce some CB specimens through inbreeding than not to do it. I think the risk you're gonna take isn't high at all.

Good luck and let us know when the results are hatching ;-)

-Martin

Lizardman
03-15-2009, 09:16 AM
It's better to breed the son with his mother than breed the male to his sister. But I wouldn't do it if you can find another female for him.

/Niclas

Dyesub Dave
03-15-2009, 09:17 AM
This is one of those topics that can get some people a little rowdy!! LOL. However I can see benefits to both sides of the coin. There is the same controversy in the tropical fish hobby.

I personally find it interesting to see the various morphs and 'WHAT IF's produced by line or inbreeding. IMO this doesn't create any problems as long as the breeder is labelling the new stock as to what exactly they are and is willing to NOT breed,sell or give away any that have negative results. The breeder should be resposible enough to cull these animals before allowing them to add their negative genes to the general population of whichever species it is.

However .... I also applaud those that like to keep a 'PURE' line of any species going. I'm sure that trying to keep the genepool somewhat pure and tracking the background of thier animals is a lot of work. It's probably difficult to find 'NEW BLOOD' that is 'PURE' because of the inbreeding.

To my knowledge all of my reptiles are unrelated. And when some of my hold back hatchlings grow out I plan on breeding them with unrelated partners. That being said I did hatch out some Veiled Chameleons last year and kept a male and female from that clutch. The father (and his son) have a fair bit of yellow in them. So this season I'm going to try to breed the brother and sister together for ONE GENERATION ONLY!! I'd like to see if I can isolate this yellow gene. From my understanding on this type of breeding there are generally no problems for several generations. But if you continue along this path the general consensus is that there will eventually be undesireable effects.

So good luck with your breeding project and be sure to let us know the results! ;-)

Dyesub Dave. :biggrin:

Riverside Reptiles
03-15-2009, 11:50 AM
I think that it's part of the difference between a high quality animal and a pet quality animal. There are those of us that will go to great lengths to not inbreed. And then there are others who don't find it an issue. But honestly, if you're looking to purchase an animal, are you going to purchase the one from the breeders that has pure, outbred stock? Or the breeder that's selling inbred babies?

I do understand that there are instances where some line breeding must occur. Certain species just don't have a big enough gene pool in captivity. Or, when working with morphs. However, there are correct ways to go about doing this and incorrect ways. It's unfortunate that many in the hobby choose the incorrect ways for the sake of speed of production (and money). "Can it be done" and "should it be done" are two different questions. It boils down to ethics in breeding and which side of that ethics line you want to be on.

Speaking of ethics, I'm going to move this thread to the ethics forum as this thread applies to every species, not just one.

Dyesub Dave
03-15-2009, 12:28 PM
While I agree with what you're saying Ethan I'm not really convinced that an inbred animal would NOT be a HIGH QUALITY animal. I guess that depends on what quality you're looking for. If the animal is of good health, nice colouration and has no defects or other issues why wouldn't this animal be a HIGH QuALITY animal regardless of how it was bred? Does line or inbreeding a species for a generation or two and then outbreeding it really MUDDY up the gene pool? I'm not sure. Perhaps we'll never know the real answer. However I would think that there is occasional inbreeding in nature.

And unfortunately you are correct that many people do use this practice to save time and make money. However there are a handful of people that are just curious to see what the outcome will be or like you said have limited access to more breeding stock. And I'm sure that some people are told that their animals are not related just so somebody can make a sale.

I think the real problem is that when people intentionally breed this way many of them do not pass on that information to the buyer. A good example would be Panther Chameleons. There are many varieties (or locales) and some people are crossing the locales to see what they end up with. While not exactly the same as inbreeding the ethics about selling still apply. Many of these chameleons will be sold as a certain locale when they are actually mixed. So then the buyer gets another cham from the same locale that the first was sold as. So now the bloodline has been mixed without the buyers knowledge who then in turns sells those babies as that locale.

Perhaps that's a bit off topic here but I guess that after enough outbreeding with this the same locale of chameleon the genes may perhaps straighten themselves out .... which I think would apply to inbreeding as well.

So unfortunately I don't think it's something that any of us can fix especially if we aren't given the correct information in the first place. And I firmly believe that it's the purists in this scenario that will help to straghten out the gene pool of the animals that are being sold without proper identification and background. IMO I think the ethics problem in this lies with the seller of these animals and how the buyers deal with the correct information when it is given to them and not in the actual breeding of these animals. Of course if it is documented that defects are coming through after inbreeding for 'X' number of generations and people are still doing it then it certainly becomes a breeding ethics problem .... once again IMO of course.

Like I said ... I plan on trying this with my related pair of chameleons for ONE GENERATION only. I am curious to see if the yellow gene will stand out. Now I've read that sometimes it takes generations of line or inbreeding to accoplish this but I'm not willing to take that chance. I will certainly be explaining to any potential buyers how these babies were created and to make sure to outbreed them for future generations to avoid health issues or potential defects. Does that not seem like a resposible way of going about this?

Dyesub Dave. :biggrin: