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View Full Version : 3 day Tokay passed away



Satori23
12-06-2010, 12:59 PM
I recieved a CB Tokay hatchling in the mail December 2nd. Was quite lively.. angry little guy barking and all. I put him first into a 18x18x24 enclosure with cococoir then thought it may be too much for him then moved him to a 10 gallon with reptile carpet. I awoke this morning to find him shedding then noticed closer and realised he has passed away.

He wasn't eating at all but I just figured he was stressed from the shipping. The seller is willing to send me another hatchling from the same group but I am quite hesitant about this considering what just happened and the money I have already invested.

I need suggestions and advice please. I hate to see a pet die. I don't know what I would have done that would have caused it's death since I followed everything to the book. Help me make the decision to try another baby tokay or go for a crested instead. Thank you in advance.

thehotchik1000
12-06-2010, 02:29 PM
As a tokay breeder myself my main concern shipping babies is the stress. They don't have the fat storage that adults have. In a few days dehydration could present a serious issue. My question is how old and how big was the baby? Every breeder Is different and my preference is to okay ship youngsters when they've reached 3 months of age. Even at that age it's nerve racking for me. I always make sure the animal going out has eaten a full meal before I ship. That way theyve had something to eat and drink before A very traumatic event. My point Is I guess ask how old and if it means waiting another couple weeks do it. Another thing, anything thats that little never put them in a tank that big. Stress, and then having too much space Is an issue. Whenever I aquire anyone new I setup a quarantine tank. It's not always parasites or sickness you should quarantine for. I quarantine just to make sure the new aquistion is eating and drinking fine, let them settle into the ten gallon and then after a couple weeks of being on a schedule switch to permanent housing. Basing that on the size of the animal. No matter a crested, tokay or anything else follow these guidlines. That way if there is a problem you catch it early. I'm sorry for your loss. It's always a shame to see any babies die. And I know from experience that some babies die for no reason. But... Hatchlings NEVER do well being shipped IMO. I hope this helps feel free to contact me if you have any questions regarding anything.

Lordoftheswarms
12-06-2010, 02:46 PM
I find this all very funny. I had a CB baby cat gecko that went from France, to Daytona, to Calgary Alberta, then to Red Deer Alberta, then to Edmonton Alberta, and I had him in a 24 x 18 x 18, and a cat gecko is a hell of a lot more delicate than a tokay. Your tokay was probably shipped from with in the US. It's possible the delivery guy or airport personelle dropped the box, or left it out in the cold or something, or that the shipper shipped it right out of the egg, but if it were shipped responsibly and with careful preparation, there are no issues.

You talk about shipping and keeping them in too large of a tank as if that is going to kill them. I find that if the proper husbandry is provided, there are generally no issues.

I would reexamine your husbandry before getting another baby, or I bet you will have another dead one.

Satori23
12-06-2010, 03:29 PM
I believe that this guy was no more than 3 weeks old. He has no fat reserve and was beyond skinny. It was shipped from Arizona to Missouri overnight. The husbandry was adequate minus the fact of having such a small tokay in a large enclosure then moving it to a 10 gallon. I am just perplexed as to what the reasoning is here.

Lordoftheswarms
12-06-2010, 06:20 PM
By your description, it sounds like your supplier didn't feed him enough the first three weeks.
Also, I don't know why you would bother him, and move him around some more after you got him home.

Excuse me if I don't take your word for it that your husbandry was acceptable. Personally, I think that is what caused the death. Describe how you cared for the tokay, and we'll see.

Satori23
12-06-2010, 06:30 PM
It was in initially a 18x18x24 Exo Terra with coco coir substrate, temps at 82 at day and 75 at night. Humidity went between 60 and 80% through out the day and night. It was then moved after two days to a 10 gallon tank with the humidity dropping to around 40 - 60% throughout the day. He was offered crickets and mealworms (both of appropriate size) He was never interested in food.

This isn't my first time owning a gecko.. you are a bit harsh with your assumptions. My whole thought was that it was due to his age in shipping.. the seller received 4 of them from a trade show. I can supply pictures to further show this herps age is quite young.

I didn't come here to be told my ability to take care of a herp is inadequate - I am not an amateur but by no means an expert. I came here for a a few simple opinions. The worst part if the loss of an animal - I understand some juvies just don't make it.


My final assumption though is just that the gecko was far to young to ship.

Lordoftheswarms
12-06-2010, 08:48 PM
82 and 75 are about 10 degrees too cold for one thing.

Maybe it was just too young.
To me, the idea that overnight shipping could be the cause of its death is a joke.
I don't understand how that could be the issue when pet store I work at receives hatchling leopards all the time, and damn near 100% do fine with the right care, and my cat went all over the place before coming to my home.
The contribution of stress from shipping seems to be negligible in my experience.

Did you leave the crickets in with him? How many? What size?
I expect that you overwhelmed him with too many, and your moving him between enclosures didn't help either.

You may think I'm harsh, but I think I have pretty good analytical abilities, and I'm going to let you know what I think when you ask for it, especially when gecko lives are at stake.

thehotchik1000
12-06-2010, 09:37 PM
There are alot of factors that could have gone into this whole situation. And probably more than one caused this little ones death. And i dont think that THE shipping caused its death. I think shipping is stressful for a little baby to a huge adult. But brand new babies i dont think do well being shipped and in my honest opinion it shouldnt have ever been sold that young. I also dont think that the husbandry alone caused its death either. 82 daytime is cool but not unreasonably cold. Ive had a pair that i had to cool down to stop the female from laying eggs, and that was at 80.F eggs hatched in that tank at that time and the babies were in there for 2 months living quite well.
Also tokays hatchlings dont eat for around 2 weeks out of the egg. This is why im saying it shouldnt have ever been sold. If the animal was aprox 3 weeks, the seller never established the animal was eating, drinking, and doing everything that it should have been doing....ie thriving. Okay the tank...heres a brand new hatchling in a 18x 18x24 tank, Stressed from shipping. Maybe he put in alot of crix or 5-6 still a big tank like that for one little baby is not the best situation.Too little space can be a problem as well as too much. Do I think that is the absolute cause of death. No.. Do I think it was smart for him to move the baby into a smaller tank. Yes. Thats exactly what I would do seeing a little one have problems. Heres the thing.. he was there for 3 days. So I feel like the previous care and or lack of it was the bigger problem. If this three week old went from breeder to trade show to another place then finally Satori23's place I see that as a huge part of this little guys death. In the end yes some babies dont make it and that baby didnt. There probably are a few reasons for it unfortunately we will never be able to know what THE reason is. Learning from it though and making sure it doesnt happen again should be the end result here.

Lordoftheswarms
12-06-2010, 10:28 PM
Tokay babies don't eat for the first two weeks? Really? I didn't know that, but that seems to be quite a lot.

I suppose I may have given the seller a bit more credit than may have been deserved if that is true, especially if he wasn't the breeder. If he just got it in, and sent it off again, then that could have been a much larger contributing factor in light of this new information.

adam03
12-06-2010, 10:45 PM
Sorry for your loss :(

thehotchik1000
12-06-2010, 11:54 PM
Yes hatchlings don't eat from day 0 out of egg to somewhere around 10-14 days.

Kita
12-07-2010, 12:17 AM
My Toklings are eating by one week out of the egg. If the seller got them from a trade show, are you even sure they really are CB? I don't really think you had it long enough to have been a major cause to it's death though, but I also think it wouldn't have taken much to make things worse if it had the problems it seemed to in the beginning.

Satori23
12-07-2010, 03:22 PM
I wanted to share some pictures of the little guy. He seemed so energetic and fine :(

It's still hard to believe.

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/lgshkr11/DSC_1097.jpg

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/lgshkr11/DSC_1082.jpg

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/lgshkr11/DSC_1077.jpg

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/lgshkr11/DSC_1076.jpg

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/lgshkr11/DSC_1073.jpg

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/lgshkr11/DSC_1064.jpg

thehotchik1000
12-07-2010, 04:02 PM
Oh so sad. I think he was much too young to do whatever trip he did. That's very sad. He looks like he was around 3 weeks maybe 4 but I think he wasnt given enough time to start life off and acclimate with each place he went to. The breeder shouldn't have even taken him to the show without him getting some food into him. And then having someone flip him definately didn't help that situation.