[peterc]

Geckoholic...please call me Peter - if another joint is involved I would be more suspicious of septic arthritis, with spread via blood to other joints/organs.......normally however we would see other systemic signs/changes such as ventral erythema,petechial haemorrhages present oral mucosa, weight loss, anorexia etc. So it is interesting that the wheeleri is eating well etc. Reptiles are generally tough, hardy creatures ( there are obvious exceptions ie laevissimus) so you may still have a very sick gecko that is doing what it is programmed to do....fighting for survival and trying to get to reproductive size so that it can pass on its genetic material.Did you have a PM performed on the other gecko, if not did you open the affectede areas for your own interest, if so what did you find. If it is a septic arthritis are there any wounds on the gecko that may explain how bacteria entered, is the gecko housed alone?(Bite wound??)I suppose gout is still poss. DDx secondary to renal disease...has this gecko been treated with any drugs...if so what were they? If yes was the other gecko treated with same drugs ?A detailed radiograph would be useful (need right equipment and exposure techniqu though)...was the treating vet experienced with reptiles?

Ari...Hi there....not necessarily so........I always like to rule out poor husbandry (heating,lighting,diet,supplementation,humidity,su bstrate etc etc) first as usually the fault lies there!! Retained shed on extremities and subsequent loss of nail/toe is extremely common in shinglebacks (if I had a dollar.......) and bluetongues (often called constricted toe syndrome) bacteria then enter and infection sets in. bone destruction follows (lysis) and then lizard has a date with Dr Amputation......haven't seen this in geckos but I see relatively few geckos compared to other reptile species.

[Geckoholic]

Thanks for the help Peter.

Although the wheeleri is currently eating I am skeptical that it will continue to do so. When I first noticed these symptoms in the taenicauda it too was eating. That same day I brought the gecko to the vet and from that point on the animals healthy steadily declined. I believe the gecko only ate a few times after that. Because the animal had been in good health up to that point it was able to survive for over 6 weeks. After 3-4 week 1 joint was swollen to an extreme and the other 2 were also swollen very badly. It lost the use of both back legs by the 3rd week and the animal’s spine also began to look odd. I thought for sure it would die within days. I had just ran out of injections at this point and didn’t see a point in acquiring more because the animal hasn’t been responding them and the damage up to this point looked irreversible. In addition all of that the tissue on the rear legs began dying by the 5th or 6th week. Would an extreme case of septic arthritis cause all of these things to happen? Unfortunately, the gecko died while I was out of town for a few days so I was unable to have a PM performed. How do you prevent septic arthritis when from my understanding it is initially contracted through commonly found bacteria?

The taenicaudea had a small wound on one of its toes that appeared to have possible stemmed from a “ring” of skin that had not come off during its last shed (other then a very small piece of skin on the animals back there were no others signs of a bad shed). I am unable to find any wounds on the wheeleri and it is being housed alone so another animal could not have inflicted an injury. The wheeleri (nor the taenicauda have ever been treated with any type of drug.) From what I hear the vet I take my geckos to is supposedly pretty knowledgeable, however, none of the above mention diagnostic techniques were applied.

Thanks again Peter.

Steve

[luc]

Are you certain the taenicauda didn't stop eating because of the antibiotics ?

[peterc]

Geckoholic ( good name...an affliction shared by many on this site!!! )....it is looking more like a septic arthritis (hopefully Danny will have other insights) so how are bacteria entering? I reread all the posts to see if I had missed anything and some thoughts follow......the substrate looks coarse/abrasive...is it?Are there lots of sharp edges to the sand mix?Perhaps your humidity levels are too high...perhaps too frequent spraying.....I have never kept these species however. Is there anything else abrasive in cage?Some comments I made about generalised septicaemia (ventral erytheme,petechial haemorrhages)apply more commonly to snakes, turtles and less commonly to lizards...they were general comments and on rereading I felt I needed to correct statement.

Ari....any change from the norm may be an early indicator of a developing problem.....so record keeping is impt. - sorry gtg...more later. Peter

[peterc]

Ari - as I was saying, any change from normal behav. MAY be important...things like loss appetite, shedding probs/freq, abnormal behaviour, calm animal becoming timid etc etc etc.........so record keeping is impt. Once your collection size increases then often accurate record keeping goes out the window as time is precious to all of us...which is a pity as there are huge knowledge gaps waiting to be filled. Peter

[Ari]

Geckoholic it seems that the S. Taenicauda had some type of infection - how far gone it went is unknown. I wouldn't automatically believe that the Wheeleri has the same complications though - maybe, maybe not.

However if an antibiotic is administered make sure the correct dosage is given based on the size & weight of the specimen - as an over dose maybe more detrimental.

As per Peters previous recommendations related to the substrate - I agree and would convert to a much finer grade, and not as coarse and abrasive.

My Pilbarensis female's infection was noted by me far to late, it is correct to notice any changes in the specimens behaviour earlier if the case maybe - time restrictions.

I must say that was my first casualty and since then I have had no further problems. "Touching wood"

[peterc]

If the wheeleri dies make sure you have a PM performed...if there are no gross lesions to explain problem then have histopath done - and incude whole affected limb/joint.Store in fridge not freezer prior to getting it to vet.If it is obviously going to die consider euth and PM to ensure best chance of correct diagnosis.Good luck and keep us informed - Peter.

[Geckoholic]

Luc- I can’t be certain that the antibiotics didn’t play a role in the animals demise. I am sure the daily injections didn’t help either….

Peter: The substrate is a mixture of Jurassic red sand (which can be purchased at most local pet shops) and red clay which I collected locally from an area being developed here is SC. The mixture was an attempt to give the knob tails a harder surface which would be more natural and would also prevent easy ingestion of the substrate. With the amount of digging knob tails do, the sand alone was always breaking up even after the surface was misted and allowed to dry. However, keep in mind, when the taenicauda got sick it was before I made this change in substrate. At that point I was using straight Jurassic sand.

I only lightly mist one corner of the wheeleri cage each night (by light I literally mean 1-2 seconds). Approximately once a week 1 half of the tank is more heavy misted so that the substrate on that 1 side is damp for 1-3 days under the hides (not on the surface).

Ari- I agree, this could be something completely different then the taenicauda. As far as administering the antibiotics, all of the syringes are made prior to my leaving the vet so they should all be correct…at least I would hope…What substrate are you using Ari?


Vet Results…

I took the wheeleri to the vet yesterday. I was told by the vet that based on the animal itself and its age he doubted it was gout. I mentioned much of the advice I received here on the forums (thanks guys) and advice I have received viva e-mail. Such advice being a a radiograph and having the joint aspirated. He decided the animal was too small to have the joint aspirated. He thought the best course of action would be to lacerate the joint that was severely swollen and “drain it” by pushing on the swollen area. In the process he swabbed a portion of the “fluid” and is going to have it sent off and cultured in order to try and find out exactly what we are dealing with. He also wanted to get the animal stated on antibiotic right away. The wheeleri was given a shot of clafrin (which was the other anitbiotic used on the taenicauda) last night and I am to give him/her another injection tonight and then once every other night for a total of 7 injections…Lastly, some of the material extracted from the joint was gram stained. The results of such staining show numerous cells (which he said reinforced it was not gout) and only a few Gram positive cocci. No GNRs were seen.

[Ari]

Hi Geckoholic

I tend to generally use double white washed sand mixed with coir peat on some species and then a red clay sand mined locally on others. I think you maybe ok with what you are using. I always have 1/4 of the enclosure's substrate moistened - whether they use it everyday or not is irrelevant in my eyes at least its offered for them to choose.

The humidity in my enclosures fluctuates between 60 - 75%. I reacon one very important thing to remember inrelation to a specimens recovery is less stress is best, personally administering any type of medication by injection cant be to good on such a small specimen. I prefer an oral substitute.

I wish you all the best with this little fella you have. Its imperative that we all take note of the gecko's toes when it comes to shedding as this can be easily missed but in both my case and yours it has had detrimental effects. Such a small small thing like a cut on a toe can easily be missed.

[peterc]

Geckoholic - my strongest suspicion has always been an infectious cause.....I only included gout on mt differential diagnosis (DDx) list for completeness......note that it was listed last on list. My main reason for even including it was a concern re. overdosage of nephrotoxic drug (potentially kidney harming).