[Justin]

So you'd only donate to saving geckos that are the right size for you?

[Hazpat]

they are extremely far from endangered. they live the majority of thier lives deep within a labyrinth of fractured rock outcrops, they are only active above ground under very specific conditions. So...
a)much of thier range in california is protected by either BLM or ABDSP.
2)they rarely come above ground, even on good nights they may only come close to the surface and not all the way out.

Endangered? absolutely not
Rarely seen? absolutely yes
Rare in numbers? Based on geography probably not but we can never know.

[alecfeldman]

Well ... Normally one person's opinion would not warrant me to get into a debate, because Hazpat, this is strictly your opinion and has absolutely no substance to it. Since this is an obvious rebuttal to what I said ... I think we'll take another crack at it though.

1. The "Extremely" not endangered comment. I LOVED that one.

Question - How many of these have you seen in your numerous nights of constant road herping? Tell the truth now, because I've done my research on you Pat. Share with the forum users, the MILLIONS of Switaki you've seen on the grade. Nice avatar though... love it.

2. "they live the majority of thier lives deep within a labyrinth of fractured rock outcrops, they are only active above ground under very specific conditions. So...
a)much of thier range in california is protected by either BLM or ABDSP."

OK ... same is true for regular baned geckos in those areas .. people see those all the time. They're cryptic and shy little animals ... they are 1/3 the size (are they not more afraid?) , but you still see them right?

3. they rarely come above ground, even on good nights they may only come close to the surface and not all the way out.

Really? How do you know then, how many there are? Even the researchers that do main work on these animals, only see 6-9 a year, and that is being out there collecting data constantly. Your statement is just a guess, from insufficient data. There is not enough data period, on these animals.

4. Endangered? absolutely not - That is a HUGE statement that you have no business making. Its just misleading to people and may cause some numskull to take one of these animals that they find out of pure luck, because some guy put it on the gecko forum that they are EXTREMELY not endangered. And seriously, you have no foundation making that statement. EXTREMELY not endangered? Seriously?

5. "Rarely seen? absolutely yes" I agree and seems so do you.

6. "Rare in numbers? Based on geography probably not but we can never know."

This was my favorite. The statement where you disprove your own point. "WE CAN NEVER KNOW"

Well, actually and this is coming from myself, (I am 39 and have been doing this a lot longer than you) and from Jeff Lemm, who I first didn't want to include in this, but after our conversation he insisted for some strange reason .... and since he is a scientist and very successful in finding several individuals every year that he has to make a point of sending me a phone pic of instantly and let me know I missed the right night again, I will certainly trust anything he says on the subject. So here is the actual factual truth of the situation. These animals live on the FRINGE area of the HUGE territory that they are native to, therefore there are very SMALL populations of them in these territories. So the mass of the land is deceptive. The fact they are not seen a lot is because of their low numbers, not because the are constantly underground. They have to come to eat right? Why in Mexico are they seen more often, if they are constantly under the ground? Its because in Mexico, the populations are MUCH larger. Furthermore, seeing 1 or 2 animals in the wild, does not make ANYONE an expert on Switaki. For anyone who wants to read more on Switaki, please refer to Jeff Lemm's book on San Diego Herps ... its awesome!

So, like I said to the other forum user, show me some data.... then I will shut up about the fact that I have been looking for these animals for close to 30 years with no success because there aren't that many around. Otherwise, its all just here say. I mean hey, I saw a whole pack of ChapaCabra on Palomar last year ... There they were , Chupaing a bunch of Cabra and I drove up on them. They are EVERYWHERE and EXTREMELY real. Oh, you want some evidence, well ... I don't have any. Its the same thing.

Now I am not a herpotologist, but I have been herping the right areas or many years at optimal conditions and I have LISTENED to very knowledgable people about these awesome geckos and most people agree that the numbers are low. That is why they are a species of special concern and are protected by the no take list.

My twenty two cents. Thanks for playing.

[Hazpat]

Wow didnt think you would take things so personal.

extremely far from endangered was an equally over exaggerated retort to your claim that they are "VERY" endangered.
IMHO they are not being spotted less and less every year, so i dont see why they would be called endangered let alone "VERY" endangered. Extirpation from the norther tip of there range does not seem likely and I dont recall any data indicating this. I would love a reference if you have one.

My opinion about them living in rock crevices is based on all the literature i have read, their localities, the geology of the locals, and their habits.
your point that they must eat, is part of the reason i believe they stay active below ground. There are countless nights you could waste looking for them that are very warm humid etc... yet they are not seen and neither are the phylos or xantusia. Just because they are not siting on a rock waiting to be spotted does not mean they are not there. They fact that the need to eat is why i feel that they spend much of their time in the deep crevices of jumbled rock searching for food that does the same. (some data on stomach content of wild animals would be nice, if you know of papers please post a reference)
Banded geckos are shy? When I kept them they seemed bold to me. Moot point in the fact that banded geckos are far more adaptable than switaki.

My un-supported opinion on Mexico is that the conditions switaki love happen much more frequently down there hence they are found more. could also be a behavioral difference just a guess though.

I have spoken with a few heprers who claim (im still on the fence) to find an average of 30 a year, and according to them it is all about technique. They also claim 4 a night. But i am a lazy herper so i rarely get out of the car.

So you researched me? From jeff all you could know is that im 26 and have reported 2 switaki in the nafa database. You coulda just asked. I dont claim to be an expert or even expect to become one anytime soon. Just a very part time herper. 2 trips this year. A few more last year. Now I have never used the # of times someone finds a species over and over at the same spot to judge there ability, but I still think its funny that you bring up your age and tell me you have been doing this much longer than I, and I cant be an expert since I have "only found 1 or 2". Yet, you present your authority on the subject without ever finding one sorry the irony is too much.
If I had free time I would have more of that data you desire.



Enjoy the weather,
Pat

[Hazpat]

Something I have not mentioned is that I do believe switaki deserve the protection they have. I do believe they are more than likely threatened by poaching. My only disagreement with you was that I dont believe the strong word "endangered" applies to them.

[alecfeldman]

You want to make fun Pat ... and post your little stupid faces. Go ahead. You just look petty doing it. Nobody said, I was an expert on Switaki. I just said that your comments which as you said were pointed directly at me were not accurate... and of course I am going to take that seriously and get offended, when I get attacked. If you had any idea about me and the type of person I am, you would have never posted the trash talk Pat. Because you just look bad doing it. I won't waste any more time with you. Its not worth my efforts.

[Hazpat]

Just pointing out the irony of your insult to me. If you believe my first post was trash talk, so be it. My opinion was different than yours, so it was stated. You took it personal. I dont care either way. Have a good weekend.

[GeckoFiend]

I'm not sure if I should start a new thread, but I'm finding conflicting information as to the maximum size of switaki. The eyelash gecko book says that C. elegans is the largest coleonyx, but I hear maybe people talk about switaki and reticulatus being leopard gecko sized.

Can anyone comment on the adult size of switaki based on personal observations?

Thanks,