[Elizabeth Freer]

Mr. Barb suffered an injury with resulting damage to his spinal cord on the 28/29 October 2011, nearly 3 months ago, while caged in a 15 gallon long tank with his female partner. Since then he drags both back legs when moving around on my bed. He is uninterested in crickets. (Used to be able to handfeed crickets to him.)

I am really puzzled by this: Mr. Barb still manages to climb all the way up the back glass of his 5.5 gallon "recovery" tank and hang there for literally HOURS some days with both back feet in contact with the glass! Have not watched him do this yet. Can't understand how he could manage that feat in his current condition. When ambulating around my bed at feeding time, he still drags both back legs.

Mr. Barb remains very alert. He climbs his slate ramp to a sandstone basking platform and sometimes ducks just his head under the overhang between the ramp and the platform. Sometimes he wedges himself between the sandstone and the front glass and does NOT get stuck there . He is maintaining his weight. He poops on his own, but needs almost total shedding help.

Just read from Sean McKeown's The General Care and Maintenance of Day Geckos (page 46): "A kinked back just anterior to the hind legs resulting in full or partial paralysis of the hid legs is sometimes the first symptom of a vitamin D deficiency....Kinked tails may also develop, particularly in those lizards that alternate between receiving too little D3 and adequate amounts of the vitamin." Mr. Barb does not have a kinked back or MBD. His x-rays demonstrate properly calcified bones at this time. I am unsure how Mr. B sustained his injury. Noted him one evening with a bit of stuck shed on the tip of his tail. The very next afternoon he was hanging upright on the tank by his front legs only. Caught him...removed stuck shed from his back feet and the tip of his tail. At that point he was already dragging his hind legs.

This is what I've been placing on his snout every third day:
1/8 teaspoon of peach (or banana/mango) baby food, 1/8 teaspoon of turkey baby food, 1/2 pill of crushed Hypericum perforatum (homeopathic remedy for nerve pain). He eats about 75% of this. Every 3rd feeding (every 9th day) I add just a sprinkle of Rep-Cal phosphorus-free calcium with D3.

I do not want to overdue the vitamin D3. Mr. B weighs about 7 grams. What I am wondering is whether I would be better off using the Miner-All Indoor with D3 formula with a sprinkle every feeding rather than using Rep-Cal with D3 every 3rd feeding. Miner-All Indoor also contains minerals which are lacking in the Rep-Cal calcium with D3. Miner-All Indoor contains very much less D3 than Rep-Cal with D3.

His spine and bones are properly calcified. He was x-rayed 3 times to get a proper reading after this trauma. The last, a dental x-ray, shows lucency at the base of his spinal cord.



Past history:
Male--"Mr. Barb" hatched: 23 November 2003
Female hatched: 3 April 2003

5 Feb 2012---Dried Phelsuma barbouri neonate exam
Dried Fertile Egg Details:
[Laid: 25 October 2012---egg cracked 2 February 2012---~97 days out from laying]
Placed the body in water to rehydrate and have tried to straighten it out: full tail, 4 (jointed) limbs, see toes, but too small to count. Sunken eye sockets and a sunken area on the head. I have been unable to totally straighten the head/neck area. Looks like a small yolk sac had been attached


Have 1.1 Phelsuma barbouri---Male injured on the 28/29 Oct 2011 maybe due to shed temporarily remaining on both back feet. He has been separated from his girl and is hopefully on the road to recovery. One well-calcified egg was laid on the 25 Oct 2011. To date (28 Jan 2012) the egg has not hatched.

Already have a mature female set up very appropriately in a 15 gallon long tank with slate cave structures which occupy 3/4 of the tank's length and 1/2 the tank's width, two sanseveria in 6 inch clay pots, and 3 types of lighting: Reptisun 5.0, two halogen pucks for basking, and a single 17 inch Westek T4 cool white Under Cabinet Ultra Light (strip fluorescent). Female seems very happy in this habitat and sorely misses her injured partner who is "next door" in his recovery tank. Injury was to the spinal column; male drags both back legs ever since 29 Oct 2011. Don't know whether he will recover.

[colinmelsom]

This is a difficult one Elizabeth.I cant comment on the supplements as I dont know about them.However I was told on another forum by aprominent American herpetologist who manufactures food that it is difficult to overdose D3 with his foods. I am not sure but I feel that its best to offer good ultraviolet light and ony use the odd supplement.

I would be tempted to get some U.V.light on him.I use the 10% or 12% tubes for all my Phelsuma as I feel that they nedd it.These are still way lower than natural sunlight anyway.Can you get the Activia T5 tubes in the States yet?They have a high u.v. output and are very bright.Over here they are the way forward.

With regards to M.B.D. the symptoms can vary but the specimens that I have seen seem to have a dip at the base of the spine and a general withering in the hindquarters.It doesn`t sound like your male has this.Could it be some sort of spinal injury?

[Elizabeth Freer]

Originally Posted by colinmelsom

This is a difficult one Elizabeth.I cant comment on the supplements as I dont know about them.However I was told on another forum by aprominent American herpetologist who manufactures food that it is difficult to overdose D3 with his foods. I am not sure but I feel that its best to offer good ultraviolet light and ony use the odd supplement.

I would be tempted to get some U.V.light on him.I use the 10% or 12% tubes for all my Phelsuma as I feel that they nedd it.These are still way lower than natural sunlight anyway.Can you get the Activia T5 tubes in the States yet?They have a high u.v. output and are very bright.Over here they are the way forward.

With regards to M.B.D. the symptoms can vary but the specimens that I have seen seem to have a dip at the base of the spine and a general withering in the hindquarters.It doesn`t sound like your male has this.Could it be some sort of spinal injury?

Yes, Colin ~

It is difficult, that is why I've posted here for ALL the help I can get.

Both the injured male barbouri and his female partner have nearly identical lighting. The female (they were together before Mr. Barb suffered his "injury") is set up in a 15 gallon long tank with a Reptisun 5.0 fluorescent tube, a Westek T4 17 inch cool white Under Cabinet Fluorescent Ultra Light strip, and 2 halogen pucks for the basking ramp.

The female's lighting is ON 10 hours and OFF 14 hours right now. Room temp at night is about 68 F. These guys need a nighttime drop of 10 degrees or so.

The injured male has been in his "recovery" 5.5 gallon tank since the 29 October 2011. His lighting is identical (13 inch instead of 17 Ultra Light) to the female's lighting with the exception of the halogen pucks. He has a 25 w standard incandescent in the corner of his small tank with the temperature output tweaked by a dimmer to reach a maximun in the low 80s F.

Mr. B's lighting in ON 12 hours and OFF 12 hours in the interest of warmth and healing.

I spray both tanks heavily in the evening and sometimes spray Mr. B's tank a second time in the afternoon.

Their substrate is a 1:1 mixture of well-washed fine grade orchid bark and cocopeat fiber.

If you have info (like the name of the American herpetologist) that would be better in a PM, please do so. The independent motion of Mr. Barb's back legs, and his sometimes use of them to scale the back glass of his recovery tank, gives me some hope. I hope that motion is not ONLY what I would expect to see with the spinal ganglia taking over.

I will check to see whether the Activa T5 tubes are available in the USA now.

I thank you from the bottom of my heart for your reply!

[cricket4u]

Originally Posted by Elizabeth Freer

Yes, Colin ~

It is difficult, that is why I've posted here for ALL the help I can get.

Both the injured male barbouri and his female partner have nearly identical lighting. The female (they were together before Mr. Barb suffered his "injury") is set up in a 15 gallon long tank with a Reptisun 5.0 fluorescent tube, a Westek T4 17 inch cool white Under Cabinet Fluorescent Ultra Light strip, and 2 halogen pucks for the basking ramp.

The female's lighting is ON 10 hours and OFF 14 hours right now. Room temp at night is about 68 F. These guys need a nighttime drop of 10 degrees or so.

The injured male has been in his "recovery" 5.5 gallon tank since the 29 October 2011. His lighting is identical (13 inch instead of 17 Ultra Light) to the female's lighting with the exception of the halogen pucks. He has a 25 w standard incandescent in the corner of his small tank with the temperature output tweaked by a dimmer to reach a maximun in the low 80s F.

Mr. B's lighting in ON 12 hours and OFF 12 hours in the interest of warmth and healing.

I spray both tanks heavily in the evening and sometimes spray Mr. B's tank a second time in the afternoon.

Their substrate is a 1:1 mixture of well-washed fine grade orchid bark and cocopeat fiber.

If you have info (like the name of the American herpetologist) that would be better in a PM, please do so. The independent motion of Mr. Barb's back legs, and his sometimes use of them to scale the back glass of his recovery tank, gives me some hope. I hope that motion is not ONLY what I would expect to see with the spinal ganglia taking over.

I will check to see whether the Activa T5 tubes are available in the USA now.

I thank you from the bottom of my heart for your reply!

I'm sure you have read some post in which I mentioned I do not feel it's safe to use UVB in small enclosures because it's hard to for the reptile to avoid the rays. UVB rays can be harmful in prolonged use and the exact amounts are unknown. It is said UVb can penetrate through hides and that is my fear. Although rare it seems highly possible that the UVB when combined with oral Vitamin D can lead to overabsorption of calcium in which causes similiar symptoms as MBD.

It is usually recommended to use either or and not both. The problem with that is we must make sure the UVB bulbs are actually doing it's job. So what I do is use UVB and a small amount of D3 once a week as backup. I have never had any problems with MBD using this method. IMO the UVB must be located on one side of the enclosure so that the reptile is not forced under UVB rays continuously.

[cricket4u]

Elizabeth did you actually see the fall yourself or did the vet guess it was due to injury?

[Elizabeth Freer]

Originally Posted by cricket4u

I'm sure you have read some post in which I mentioned I do not feel it's safe to use UVB in small enclosures because it's hard to for the reptile to avoid the rays. UVB rays can be harmful in prolonged use and the exact amounts are unknown. It is said UVb can penetrate through hides and that is my fear. Although rare it seems highly possible that the UVB when combined with oral Vitamin D can lead to overabsorption of calcium in which causes similiar symptoms as MBD.

It is usually recommended to use either or and not both. The problem with that is we must make sure the UVB bulbs are actually doing it's job. So what I do is use UVB and a small amount of D3 once a week as backup. I have never had any problems with MBD using this method. IMO the UVB must be located on one side of the enclosure so that the reptile is not forced under UVB rays continuously.

cricket4u ~

Which supplement do you use to provide your D3?

Mr. B's UVB Reptisun 5.0 is only over half the tank. However, that is on a diagonal from the front left to the back right corner. There are places where he can escape the rays which are currently on for 12 hours per day. Right now he gets just a sprinkling of Rep-Cal phosphorus-free calcium with D3 every 9th day (every 3rd feeding). The Miner-All Indoor formulation has way less D3 than the Rep-Cal. Wondering whether he'd be better off if I switched to more frequent, but less "powerful" D3 sprinkles?

Since he has been hanging in there with assisted feedings, I would like to see his "progress" continue. Trying NOT to do anything I might regret. I could move him from the 5.5 gallon tank to a 10 gallon "recovery" tank.

[Elizabeth Freer]

Originally Posted by cricket4u

Elizabeth did you actually see the fall yourself or did the vet guess it was due to injury?

Excellent question! I tried to catch him Oct 28 when I noticed the retained shed on his tail tip. But I failed. Did not want to try harder because of the egg which was laid just days before on the underneath side of the slate basking ramp. The next afternoon I spotted him hanging on the back glass, holding on with only his front feet. Caught him then and found stuck shed on his back "paws" as well which I gently removed. None of the toepads were damaged.

I did not see any fall or even him being stuck and extricating himself. I really don't know how -- suddenly his back legs stopped working. I have had the pair 7+ years, since each was about one year old. Just finally paired them in August 2011.

That's one reason when I saw the info on D3 in Sean's day gecko book that I wondered if D3 irregularity or insufficiency might be the root of his problem.

I also wonder whether he could have "overstretched" himself in attempting to pull the shed from the tip of his tail?

It happened when the room heat was on more than it had been in late August and September when it was warmer outside, so I wonder how much ambient room humidity had to do with this. I have always sprayed the pair heavily each evening, but maybe I was not spraying enough at this time.

[cricket4u]

Due to the age of your gecko and the fact that you provide UVB,supplemented D3 and the X-ray it's highly unlikely to be related to not enough calcium in the diet. I can understand why you believe it's due to injury. I can't imagine a shedding problem can cause total hind leg paralysis. Did the vet suggest blood work? Especially due to age the vet should have.

[daggekko]

Were the geckos together when the problems started?

From everything you've explained I doubt d3 or calcium have anything to do with his injury. Maybe he did over-stretch when trying to get the shed. Or maybe he fell when he was trying to get it? It is good he at least can use his back feet a little.

Maybe if there was only a reptile chriopractor

Keep us updated though!

[Elizabeth Freer]

Originally Posted by daggekko

Were the geckos together when the problems started?

From everything you've explained I doubt d3 or calcium have anything to do with his injury. Maybe he did over-stretch when trying to get the shed. Or maybe he fell when he was trying to get it? It is good he at least can use his back feet a little.

Maybe if there was only a reptile chriopractor

Keep us updated though!

Adam ~

Yes, these Phelsuma barbouri were caged together when the problem started.

Just wondering whether it might be better to provide more frequent calcium with D3 doses using the Miner-All Indoor than what I am currently using: Rep-Cal's phosphorus-free calcium with D3. In addition, the Miner-All Indoor contains minerals.

I hope that he will continue to use his back feet more and more and that one day his body will be strong enough for regular walking. Hope that these wishes are not just a dream.

Thanks for reading, Adam, and your earlier PM! Yes, a reptile chiropractor! Know of any?