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  1. #1
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    Default Changing feeders food


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    Hi, I decided to change the cat food I offered to my crickets and roaches as I am convinced that this is a poor choice. As I am living in Brazil, bearded dragon food is not avaliable so I decided to go on food for chickens. There are 2 brands recomended here on GU and naturally they are not avaliable here too, so I looked for a similar one which seems to be quite equivalent regarding the nutricional chart, but can easily be corrected. Well, I found that the one I plan to use had phytose, what seems to promote fosforus absortion. It seems at least one of the recomended brands here also got, so, I am curious to know if I can still use it. Does anyone already noticed that? Thanks in advance and sorry the bad english
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    If you feed them low phosphorous foods, then it should not be a problem. So long as the chicken feed does not contain diatomaceous earth, it should be fine to feed them that.

    The Anatomy of Gut-Loading | Ingredients & Nutritional Info | Much Ado About Chameleons <--there are some good dry foods you can feed insects in this article. They are the ones that are at the end of the list, ie wheat bran, flax seed.
    "Attitude is a little thing that makes a big difference." ~ Winston Churchill

    “I’m being extremely clever up here and there’s no one to stand around looking impressed! What’s the point in having you all?”-The 11th Doctor.

    1.0.0- Leopard Gecko (Ziggy)
    1.0.0- Crested Gecko (Axel-The Frogman)
    0.1.0- Guinea Pig (Brownie)
    B. dubia, T. molitor, M. quinquemaculata
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    Thanks Jess. It has a nice Ca/P concentration, no problem then. I think I will just add sunflower seeds and paprika for more protein and Vit. A, plus some vitamin suplement. I was thinking in complementing Vit E, but I am not sure if I need too as long I use the supplement. Here are the product I am thinking in use, besides it is in portuguese, I think you can readily understand the chart down in the page
    LINHA DO CAMPO - OVOS AVES PRODUTORAS - PCT 5 KG - Nutrição Animal / Rações | Agroline
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  4. #4
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    Google with translate for me

    If you have a good multivitamin then I would not add Vit E. Vit. E is more for skin, hail and nails but adding some extra Vit. A never hurts.
    "Attitude is a little thing that makes a big difference." ~ Winston Churchill

    “I’m being extremely clever up here and there’s no one to stand around looking impressed! What’s the point in having you all?”-The 11th Doctor.

    1.0.0- Leopard Gecko (Ziggy)
    1.0.0- Crested Gecko (Axel-The Frogman)
    0.1.0- Guinea Pig (Brownie)
    B. dubia, T. molitor, M. quinquemaculata
    Thanks Gekkotan thanked for this post

  5. #5
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    Hi Gekkotan ~

    Good to hear from you!

    Changing your feeder diet will be welcome news for your geckos!

    • Is there also a listing of ingredients on that website?
    • Make sure this poultry feed contains NO diatomaceous earth.
    • Keep this poultry feed in an airtight container to protect it from excessive humidity.

    Here's a Google translation of the poultry food you are considering.

    Product description
    Guarantee Levels
    Humidity (Max) 130,00 g / kg
    Crude Protein (Min) 140,00 g / kg
    Ethereal Extract (Min) 28.00 g / kg
    Gross fiber (Max) 90.00 g / kg
    Mineral matter (Max) 200,00 g / kg
    Calcium (Min) 38.00 g / kg
    Calcium (Max) 45.00 g / kg
    Phosphorus (Min) 6000.00 mg / kg
    Sodium (Min) 2000.00 mg / kg
    Iron (Min) 27,00 mg / kg
    Copper (Max) 5.00 mg / kg
    Zinc (Min) 45,00 mg / kg
    Manganese (Min) 63.00 g / kg
    Iodine (Min) 0.90 mg / kg
    Selenium (Min) 0.31 mg / kg
    Cobalt (Min) 0.18 mg / kg
    Vitamin A (Min) 8000.00 IU / kg
    Vitamin D3 (Min) 2,000.00 IU / kg
    Vitamin E (Min) 15,00 IU / kg
    Vitamin K3 (Min) 2.00 mg / kg
    Vitamin B1 (Min) 1.00 mg / kg
    Vitamin B2 (Min) 4.00 mg / kg
    Niacin (Min) 10,00 mg / kg
    Pantothenic Acid (Min) 10,00 mg / kg
    Vitamin B6 (Min) 3.00 mg / kg
    Folic Acid (Min) 1.00 mg / kg
    Vitamin B12 (Min) 8.00 mcg / kg
    Hill (Min) 480.00 mg / kg
    Biotin (Max) 0.10 mg / kg
    Lysine (Min) 5000.00 mg / kg
    Methionine (Min) 2000.00 mg / kg
    Phytase (Min) 30.00 u / kg
    Saccharomyces cerevisiae (Min) 2,4x10E9 u / kg

    Additional Information
    Indication: Ration formulated for creating birds producing eggs.

    Characteristics
    · Eggs much more Yellow gems.
    · Nutritionally balanced.
    · Best quality bark.
    · Improved feed conversion.
    · Strict control of ingredients, ensuring security to its creation

    Benefits
    - Natural Additives
    - natural pigmentation of egg yolk
    - Improved cost and benefit
    - With digestive enzymes
    - Increased digestibility
    - With probiotic intestinal health

    How to use
    Provide the product from the 18th week of age or egg 1. We recommend offer diet 2 times a day in sufficient quantities (100 to 120 g / bird / day) in constant time.

    Presentation
    Packaging 5 kg and 20 kg.

    Shelf Life: 90 days from the date of manufacture.

    ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

    PS: I would NOT use wheat bran or wheat germ at all. As far as I can tell both wheat bran and wheat germ contain huge amounts of phosphorus!

    Click: Foods List
    Last edited by Elizabeth Freer; 02-19-2016 at 04:12 PM.
    "If you can hear crickets, it's still summer." ;)

    "May the peace that
    You find at the beach
    Follow you home"

    Click: Leo Care Sheet's Table of Contents

    ===> No plain calcium, calcium with D3, or multivitamins inside an enclosure <===

    Oedura castelnaui ~ Lepidodactylus lugubris ~ Phelsuma barbouri ~ Ptychozoon kuhli ~ Cyrtodactylus peguensis zebraicus ~ Phyllurus platurus ~ Eublepharis macularius ~ Correlophus ciliatus ~ (L kimhowelli) ~ (P tigrinus) ~ (P klemmeri) ~ (H garnotii)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elizabeth Freer View Post
    Hi Gekkotan ~

    Good to hear from you!

    Changing your feeder diet will be welcome news for your geckos!

    • Is there also a listing of ingredients on that website?
    • Make sure this poultry feed contains NO diatomaceous earth.
    • Keep this poultry feed in an airtight container to protect it from excessive humidity.

    ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

    PS: I would NOT use wheat bran or wheat germ at all. As far as I can tell both wheat bran and wheat germ contain huge amounts of phosphorus!

    Click: Foods List
    About the ingredients , I havent found yet. I will try to find the food in stores this weekend, just after to find out if it is diatomaceous earth-free.
    Here I use oat bran and wheat for meal worms, but I am convinced that these, as well as using cat food for the crickets, were the cause of some recent failures. I am reticent for changing all the substrate for this food, maybe I shall change it partially at least as I use mealworms for food only when my crickets are too small or too old for the geckos.
    Well, thanks again, both of you
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gekkotan View Post
    About the ingredients , I havent found yet. I will try to find the food in stores this weekend, just after to find out if it is diatomaceous earth-free.
    Here I use oat bran and wheat for meal worms, but I am convinced that these, as well as using cat food for the crickets, were the cause of some recent failures. I am reticent for changing all the substrate for this food, maybe I shall change it partially at least as I use mealworms for food only when my crickets are too small or too old for the geckos.
    Well, thanks again, both of you
    , Gekkotan! You are definitely welcome. That's the power of the internet.

    "Diatomaceous earth-free" is the bottom line for safety here!

    Sometimes my Foods List link (from the United States Department of Agriculture) does not work. I don't know what I'm doing wrong.

    Right now I'm looking for the wheat germ, wheat bran, and oats links I've saved somewhere that show the huge amount of phosphorus in those foods. I would not use any of them as mealworm bedding. I've just recently started a mealworm culture. I'm using ground Albers All Purpose Poultry Feed as the bedding.
    "If you can hear crickets, it's still summer." ;)

    "May the peace that
    You find at the beach
    Follow you home"

    Click: Leo Care Sheet's Table of Contents

    ===> No plain calcium, calcium with D3, or multivitamins inside an enclosure <===

    Oedura castelnaui ~ Lepidodactylus lugubris ~ Phelsuma barbouri ~ Ptychozoon kuhli ~ Cyrtodactylus peguensis zebraicus ~ Phyllurus platurus ~ Eublepharis macularius ~ Correlophus ciliatus ~ (L kimhowelli) ~ (P tigrinus) ~ (P klemmeri) ~ (H garnotii)

  8. #8
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    We wish to approximate something close to a 1.5-2.0 calcium : 1.0 phosphorus ratio with our feeders.

    We lightly dust bugs and worms to adjust the calcium : phosphorus imbalance found in them. Dusting should not be the "whole" story. I think that feeding high phosphorus foods to the bugs/worms makes this impossible. That's why it is best to feed bugs and worms the best dry diet possible plus adding low phosphorus/high calcium veggies (pesticide-free collard greens and dandelion greens).

    • Click: Foods List
    • Enter some food like wheat germ
    • Scroll down for calcium and phosphorus per 100 grams, for instance, and compare
    • Wheat Germ -- Show Foods
      calcium 39
      phosphorus 842
      ratio: 1 part calcium : 22 parts phosphorus

    • Wheat Bran -- Show Foods
      calcium 73
      phosphorus 1,013
      ratio: 1 part calcium : 14 parts phosphorus

    • Oats -- Show Foods
      calcium 54
      phosphorus 523
      ratio: 1 part calcium : 10 parts phosphorus
    Last edited by Elizabeth Freer; 02-23-2016 at 09:01 PM. Reason: fixed calcium-to-phosphorus ratios
    "If you can hear crickets, it's still summer." ;)

    "May the peace that
    You find at the beach
    Follow you home"

    Click: Leo Care Sheet's Table of Contents

    ===> No plain calcium, calcium with D3, or multivitamins inside an enclosure <===

    Oedura castelnaui ~ Lepidodactylus lugubris ~ Phelsuma barbouri ~ Ptychozoon kuhli ~ Cyrtodactylus peguensis zebraicus ~ Phyllurus platurus ~ Eublepharis macularius ~ Correlophus ciliatus ~ (L kimhowelli) ~ (P tigrinus) ~ (P klemmeri) ~ (H garnotii)

  9. #9
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    Yes, indeed is too much. It is funny how half ignorance its worse than a full one. I have in the past look for a high calcium natural substrate to mealworms and came up with this mix, but never realized that if it is also rich in phosphorus, it can represent a worse cenario than before. Well, it is never too late to improve our knowledge and pratices. Now I have to change the foor I offer for hydration. Here there are some diferences in the greens. Dandelions are no avaliable for example. I have seen them in some gardens inside the city, but may be contaminated. I used potates and beets as stable, now I may substitute them for orange as stable and mustard and collards one or 2 times a week. Yesterday I bought the chicken food as it is diatomaceous earth-free. Tomorrow I post here the ingredients



    Quote Originally Posted by Elizabeth Freer View Post
    We wish to approximate something close to a 1.5-2.0 calcium : 1.0 phosphorus ratio with our feeders.

    We lightly dust bugs and worms to adjust the calcium : phosphorus imbalance found in them. Dusting should not be the "whole" story. I think that feeding high phosphorus foods to the bugs/worms makes this impossible. That's why it is best to feed bugs and worms the best dry diet possible plus adding low phosphorus/high calcium veggies (pesticide-free collard greens and dandelion greens).

    • Click: Foods List
    • Enter some food like wheat bran
    • Scroll down for calcium and phosphorus per 100 grams, for instance, and compare
    • Wheat Bran -- Show Foods
      calcium 73
      phosphorus 1,013
      ratio: 0.07

    • Wheat Germ -- Show Foods
      calcium 39
      phosphorus 842
      ratio:

    • Oats -- Show Foods
      calcium 54
      phosphorus 523
      ratio: 0.10
    Thanks Elizabeth Freer thanked for this post
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gekkotan View Post
    Yes, indeed is too much. It is funny how half ignorance its worse than a full one. I have in the past look for a high calcium natural substrate to mealworms and came up with this mix, but never realized that if it is also rich in phosphorus, it can represent a worse cenario than before. Well, it is never too late to improve our knowledge and pratices. Now I have to change the foor I offer for hydration. Here there are some diferences in the greens. Dandelions are no avaliable for example. I have seen them in some gardens inside the city, but may be contaminated. I used potates and beets as stable, now I may substitute them for orange as stable and mustard and collards one or 2 times a week. Yesterday I bought the chicken food as it is diatomaceous earth-free. Tomorrow I post here the ingredients
    I really agree with you. I am amazed at how some generally reputable gecko breeders swear by wheat bran and wheat germ for their mealworms! I've seen it happen more than once. One person doubted the validity of the United States Department of Agriculture links. By using/recommending wheat bran, wheat germ, or oats as a mealworm bedding, it seems like geckos might be doomed.

    For sure, it is never too late to learn new and better ways of doing things. Is it possible for you to grow your own dandelions?

    The good news is that the chicken food you have available is diatomaceous earth-free! I'm glad that you are searching for other staples.

    • Click: beets - Show Foods
    • Click: potatoes - raw (Can't get them to come up.)
    • Click: paprika - Show Foods
      Paprika is an excellent dietary source of vitamin A. What I don't know is how much dietary vitamin A is safe. Would any excess be flushed out by the geckos' kidneys?

    Just a couple weeks ago I noticed that organic dandelion greens were sold at a nearby grocery store. On my next trip I bought some for my crickets. They are really bitter, but the crickets are eating them.
    Last edited by Elizabeth Freer; 02-22-2016 at 04:01 AM.
    "If you can hear crickets, it's still summer." ;)

    "May the peace that
    You find at the beach
    Follow you home"

    Click: Leo Care Sheet's Table of Contents

    ===> No plain calcium, calcium with D3, or multivitamins inside an enclosure <===

    Oedura castelnaui ~ Lepidodactylus lugubris ~ Phelsuma barbouri ~ Ptychozoon kuhli ~ Cyrtodactylus peguensis zebraicus ~ Phyllurus platurus ~ Eublepharis macularius ~ Correlophus ciliatus ~ (L kimhowelli) ~ (P tigrinus) ~ (P klemmeri) ~ (H garnotii)

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