[Elizabeth Freer]

Hi All ~

This information was e-mailed to me by Jenn, Pacific Northwest Herpetological Society:

Phosphorus is necessary to herps as a component of bones, but too much
phosphorus impairs calcium absorption. Here is a paragraph from Melissa
Kaplan's page on Melissa Kaplan's Herp and Green Iguana Information Collection about calcium and MBD:

"Generally, equal amounts of soluble calcium and phosphorus ions are
required for balance; ideally, the ratio of calcium to phosphorus should
be 2:1. Too much calcium results in a phosphorus deficiency and impaired
metabolic function. Too much phosphorus in the diet forms insoluble
calcium phosphate which renders the calcium unusable; as the body
continues to absorb the phosphorus, hypocalcemia—metabolic bone
disease—results."

A lot of veggies contain phosphorus so you have to feed a carefully
balanced diet to iguanas and other herbivores. Additionally, most feeder
insects have a poor Ca:Ph ratio, so you dust with Ca only to increase
that side of the ratio. Here is a nutrition chart I found online that
shows the Ca and Ph toward the right side:

http://www.house-of-reptiles.com/fee...ertebrates.pdf

Hope this helps!

Jenn

Thanks, Jenn!

[Hilde]

Thanks for posting that, Elizabeth.

Phosphorus can be found in all life forms, animal and vegatable, so it's easy to get a full daily dose without it being added with supplements. It's actually part of the structure of DNA and RNA, as well as body organs in general. If your feeder(s) was alive at one time, then it comes complete with a hefty dose of phosphorus, no need to add more.

I can't understand the reasoning behind some of the supplements I've seen which almost boast that they contain phosphorus "which is necessary for a healthy body". Yup, it's needed, but it's so darn easy to get, almost as easy as oxygen, so there's not likely to be a shortage of it in most diets.

[Jas]

Have to agree with Hilde on the Phosphorus not needing to be added. A while ago i had some feeder insects tested after being just fed bran and water for one week, crickets tested at 1/11 Ca/Phos and morio's 1/13 Ca/Phos so you definatly dont want to add any more phosphorus to there diet.

[MauricesExoticPets]

The Calcium with Phosphorous stuff has its place, but not so much in the world of insectivores.

There are vegetables that contain a huge quantity of Ca and much less P.

In this case correcting the Ca:P ratio requires a combination of Ca & P.

It gets kind of complicated doing the numbers, but it can be done.

I use the USDAs nutrient database to determine the combined Ca:P ratio of our iguana diets and correct to a (1.6:1 - 2.0:1) Ca:P ratio with whatever supplement is required to get the job done.

You realy have to develop a list of recipes that you have calculated Ca:P ratios for future reference, otherwise this becomes a very time consuming activity.



In the case of gutloading insects, I feed them an 8:1 Ca:P ratio diet for 18-24 hours prior to feeding them to my geckos, this goes a long way toward correcting the sad ratio they come with.

I also use phoenix worms as an overall Ca:P corrector, it’s the meals Ca:P ratio that matters, not just each insects ratio.

Maurice Pudlo

[MauricesExoticPets]

Here is a nice link:
BioOne Online Journals - INCREASING THE CALCIUM CONTENT OF MEALWORMS (TENEBRIO MOLITOR) TO IMPROVE THEIR NUTRITIONAL VALUE FOR BONE MINERALIZATION OF GROWING CHICKS

And another:
http://www.rims.net/InsectNutritionalPrimer.pdf

Once an insect is corrected to an acceptable Ca:P ratio via gutloading, Ca with P dusts can be used to increase the Ca uptake when its needed, such as with breeding/gravid females.

Just increasing the calcium content is not going to work because phosphorous is required too.

Maurice Pudlo

[Elizabeth Freer]

Maurice ~

I can't get your second link to work at all????

Update:
Both links working as of 18 June 2011

[Ingo]

Yes, Phosphorous is required, but it is present in more than reasonable amounts in the feeder inssects and other feeder stuff you normally can provide. Thus, it already is not easy to reach a healthy Ca/P ratio just by dusting, even if you only use P-free Ca-supplements. I do not see any benefit in using Ca-supplements, which are not devoid of phosphorous.
Phoenix worms are like the exception, but I doubnt that too manx herps wouls prefer them as a major part of their diet.

Ingo

[MauricesExoticPets]

If you would look at the links I provided you will see that it is possible to correct the Ca:P ratio of your feeder insects via a particular diet (not to be confused with any type of gutloading because the term is so very often misused).

If all you are doing is dusting with calcium then by all means use calcium without phosphorous on almost all insects except those with a Ca:P ratio of at least 1.5:1.

If you are properly gutloading feeder insects and dusting them, the dust will require some phosphorous to keep the overall Ca:P ratio correct.

Just like plenty of people cut the Ca plus vitamin D powders with plain Ca to reduce the level of vitamin D the same can be done with Ca + P powders. This is a bit more complex to figure out but it can be done.

The second link works for me Elizabeth, I'm not sure what to do to fix it for you. Maybe try on another computer? I take a look and see if I can find another workaround for you.

Maurice Pudlo

[Riverside Reptiles]

The link worked for me too. But it's a pdf file. So if you don't have the software (Adobe acrobat reader) to read pdf's, I assume it won't work.

[Ingo]

I have to go through my papers to get some quotes. But with my knowledge of composition of feederinsects, the amount of dust, which sticks to the animals. I can almost gurantee, that you can not increase the Ca/P ration for any feede rnsect with a Ca/P ratio of 0.8 or lower very common) to the necessary 1.2-2.
With gut loading, you can and I agree, if your herp eats 100% of freshkly gut loaded feeder insects with a heavy Ca part in the insects food, you can reach a Ca/ratio of up to 2.0 for the category of feeders I jus tmentione. But from all of my knowledge, I strongly dount that you can exceed a ratio of 2:1 by any means of dustig and gut loading. This, even with heavily gut loaded insects yo do not have to add P supplements, the animals still get enough from the feeders.
Just my 2 cts plus some reading and some experiments, I did durng design of my supplements, which were commercialized by Eurital/Herpetal.

Ingo