[kirak]

Dear All. I own female Tokay and several months ago I brought her a male for 2-3 weeks with an intention of breeding. From the very first day the male was rather aggressive towards the female and she has quickly acquired clear signs of quite hard bites on her head and various parts of body. I thought this is normal during courtship, as I’ve read about this on internet. Later it became obvious that the female is not going to lay eggs.
Three days ago I’ve brought her the same male (no any other available in my area) and was watching their relationships closely. Almost immediately after the introduction into enclosure the male has attacked and chased off the female from her favorite hiding spot. Later he grasped the female’s leg and was holding her for about 20 minutes. The male is calling regularly several times a day, but he continues attacks whenever female tries to approach him. Today I have found them with interlocked jaws (for more than an hour), while the female got fresh bruises and a couple of deep sores with ripped skin (flesh is visible). She nevertheless tries to approach him carefully again and again after each attack and some rest. Apparently these fights continue throughout nights as I hear their scuffles.
No problem with correct sexing. The male is a thinner and bit smaller than the female, though it has rather unusual slender head. The male eats well, while the female stopped eating since introduction of the male. The enclosure is not too large (c.15 gal), but has enough hiding spots.
I’ve read at this forum that males almost never attack females. May be I have incompatible pair? May be this is territorial issue? Is it likely that they will mate after some time? Or may be I should remove the male asap? Has anybody experienced such aggressiveness of male towards female in tokays? I’ve never bred the species before, so quite confused now. Comments/suggestions from experienced tokay keepers would be much appreciated. Many thanks in advance.

[pyro4fun]

What are there size and weight? How old are thy? I would definitely look for a larger tank also, maybe one you can make vertical, thy like to climb.
Im still new at tokays as well but if the female has open wounds i would separate them for now and let her heal fist thing. After she has healed you can try to re-arange the viv that you are going to put them in. Make it a hole new place new hides nothing the same as the old viv. The male might be territorial right now because your putting her in HIS house right now. He might just not like her for a mate either so thy might not work as a pair but i would try the first suggestion before coming to that conclusion.

[BlakeDeffenbaugh]

Make sure the female is a actual female. Sexing is some times hard. My male killed 2 females before I found a female that he got along with.

[sarahjane85]

Originally Posted by BlakeDeffenbaugh

My male killed 2 females before I found a female that he got along with.

What? Are you kidding? How did he kill them? -- bite wounds that later became infected....?? Please let me know how this came about as I have an extremely large male that I've been hesitant to pair up with my smaller female. What were the circumstances -- how were they introduced (his, hers, or neutral enclosure)?

Sarah.

[thehotchik1000]

Hi everyone,

Ive been working with tokays for a while now and the biggest problem ive seen, is people do NOT know how to correctly sex these guys. A young male may look like a female until he hits sexual maturity and thats when his wax will start growing. You could possible have a fully matured male in with an maturing but not quite there yet young male. if you look at your females pores above her vent and the have little black dots in them you have a boy. If not you have a girl. I have used this technique of sexing like that looking not only if they have wax but if the wax pores are there aswell. (i call them wax pores but if thats what they are really called is another thing.) My point is is tokays more often than not are sexed wrong. Many people dont know how or dont take the time to do it the right way and mistakes can happen. If that male is attacking her alot like that id say with pretty confident certainty that there is a problem with sexing. Ive had incompatible partners together and they just dont mate and usually its the female that is the one to get feisty. But if a sexually mature male is calling and when an actual female does approach him theyll begin the courting process. Now if thats another young male it is certainly territorial and that is the reason they are fighting. Sorry for the length of this but if im of any help at all id write a book for someone...

[cliff_f]

Originally Posted by thehotchik1000

Hi everyone,

Ive been working with tokays for a while now and the biggest problem ive seen, is people do NOT know how to correctly sex these guys. A young male may look like a female until he hits sexual maturity and thats when his wax will start growing. You could possible have a fully matured male in with an maturing but not quite there yet young male. if you look at your females pores above her vent and the have little black dots in them you have a boy. If not you have a girl. I have used this technique of sexing like that looking not only if they have wax but if the wax pores are there aswell. (i call them wax pores but if thats what they are really called is another thing.) My point is is tokays more often than not are sexed wrong. Many people dont know how or dont take the time to do it the right way and mistakes can happen. If that male is attacking her alot like that id say with pretty confident certainty that there is a problem with sexing. Ive had incompatible partners together and they just dont mate and usually its the female that is the one to get feisty. But if a sexually mature male is calling and when an actual female does approach him theyll begin the courting process. Now if thats another young male it is certainly territorial and that is the reason they are fighting. Sorry for the length of this but if im of any help at all id write a book for someone...

I agree with what she says. I was thinking the same thing.

[BlakeDeffenbaugh]

Originally Posted by sarahjane85

What? Are you kidding? How did he kill them? -- bite wounds that later became infected....?? Please let me know how this came about as I have an extremely large male that I've been hesitant to pair up with my smaller female. What were the circumstances -- how were they introduced (his, hers, or neutral enclosure)?

Sarah.

I introduced the females in with the male. He stressed them out where they just laid on the ground then didnt eat. When I noticed it I tried separating them the females just wouldnt go back on food. They were both accurately sexed and appropriately sized for my male they just didnt take. Now that I got a compatible female they are bonded and I cant separate them for anything.

WC tokays are a lot like WC Ball Pythons. . if they dont want to eat they just wont.

[cliff_f]

Originally Posted by sarahjane85

What? Are you kidding? How did he kill them? -- bite wounds that later became infected....?? Please let me know how this came about as I have an extremely large male that I've been hesitant to pair up with my smaller female. What were the circumstances -- how were they introduced (his, hers, or neutral enclosure)?

Sarah.

Neutral enclosure. Basically rearrange the enclosure you want to put them in. Really you shouldn't have any problems. I should take a picture of the size difference in my male and female. He is huge compared to her and they have never had any problems.

[Ingo]

I fully agree with the above said. The behaviour observed is a very strong indication that your "female" in fact is male. Tokay males typically never attack females. This holds true for any female, even if it is a newly introduced or very small one.
Can you thus post a closeup pic of the anal area of the animal in question?

It would be in any case very unusual, if accurately sexed females would be attacked by a male. This is highly unnatural behaviour and if sexing is correct (which I still doubt here), a way too small or inappropriately set up enclosure might be a reason, but still an unlikely one.

With tokays, you should have more concern with two females or an older bonded female and a young male.
Females can fight each other seriously and sometimes, females can even attack much larger males, if they are newly introduced and the female has been tightly bonded to another male before.

Of course, two males hardly ever get along, but even here, there are exceptions: 12 years ago, I aquired a "pair" of five year old very large tokays. Very quickly, I found out, it were two males.
However, even in the new enbclosure in my home (400g at that time) they did not only get along well with each other, but were never seen at more than a foot distance from each other.
That did not even change upon the introduction of a female (this one did not accept other females, thus 2.2 remained impossible). Both males sired clutches with this female (in fact you could tell from the red dots on the head of the offspring, which male was father of which baby) and both males took care of eggs and babies.
But still the two shared one hide and the female had to sleep somewhere else.
When one of these two males died some years ago (the second one is still alive and healthy today), the remaining one called endlessly day and night for more then two weeks till complete exhaustion. Such behaviour is typically for male tokays, which loose their mate. But here, the female was still in - this guy called for his lost male friend.

After all, to my experience with ~25 years of keeping this species,Tokays are among the least aggressive geckos, when it comes to intraspecies aggression. Thus any strong level of aggression seen should be a reason for the keeper, to check, what has gone wrong.
In most cases, however, the reason is erroneous sexing or way too small enclosures.

Ingo


Ingo

[kirak]

Many thanks indeed to all for your prompt response.
I’m unaware of exact age of the geckos, but both are definitely over 1 yo, perhaps no less than 15 months. Female is 24 cm long. Male is about the same length (haven’t measured him), but, as I said, thinner, more elegant, though with larger feet/longer toes. I don’t know their weight, but the female would be heavier. I do keep them in a vertical tank. I would stress once again that the male was introduced into the female’s enclosure.
I attach pictures of my animals. There wasn’t an opportunity to take picture of the male’s ventral area, but it has the distinct well developed pores and he calls ‘tokay’!
Note the dark bruises on the female’s body and (on the ventral shot) the open wounds on her right thigh – the male’s work.
Today they have spent quietly, each in its own hide without a fight. Did not contacted each other, but the male was calling several times.