[holocaustto]

I have to say I think you're 100% right.
We tend to confuse aggressive with deffensive and it's true, if don't bother them, they are quiet animals.

[jpmarcel]

Originally Posted by Ingo

I did. But what do you mean with calmer?
Tokays are very agile and very peaceful geckos. In fact they are among the least aggressive geckos species I know of.
Kept in too small tanks they can become very immobile and appear aggressive, since they do not find enough space to feel secure.

Wow. To say Tokays are among the least aggressive (or defensive) gecko species has got to be one of the most misleading bits of info I've seen posted. What gecko would you say is more aggressive?

[Ingo]

I know that many people -and Cliff above all- in this forum disagree with my opinion on reasonable cage sizes.
Thats why I more or less decided not to comment on such topics anymore.
Strange enough, ideas on apt enclosure sizes in the herp world seem to differ a lot between Europe and the US. I do not know why that is the case, but this discrepancy clearly underlies at least part of the controverse discussions in this forum. Here in Europe, what I recommend in the tokay cage size question is what many many herpers use and it also is not too far from the official recommendations provided by our government in cooperation with the DGHT (German society for herpetology and herpetoculture) .
But let me take some time to come to my recommendation to help some people to better understand, why I recommend what.
When it comes to tokays, I aquired my first pair in 1976 and have had tokays almost ever since that time.
As a kid I started with really small tanks and today I can say, I have kept tokays in almost any tank size between 25 and 1200g.
These experiences do of course very much influence my recommendations and my way of keeping tokays today.
Before coming to the point, I want you to consider a few things: Tokays are arboreal lizards, which in their natural habitat spend most of their time several feet above the ground and only come close to the ground for seconds when feeding. They reach a total length of one foot or more and can be very quick. In the wild, as free roamers in herp rooms and in large tanks you can see that they do roam around a lot at night and make use of a lot of space quite intensively. In the same setups, you can see that tokays are a species with a very low aggression potential. I repeat, that to my experience with geckos, tokays are among the least aggressive species at all. And this not only affects intra- but also interspecific aggression. In my largest paludarium (~1200g) they peacefully live together with basilisks, toads and others since 1998 and never were a cause of injury of any cagemate.
Tokays however are sensitive creatures, which easily feel unsecure and disturbed if they can not evade from cagemates or persons. In a small cage, any cagemate or the keeper easily comes too close and then the cornered tokays show that they are capable of impressive defense reaction. That must not be mixed up with aggressiveness or aggression potential. It is pure defense behaviour! However, that and only that is responsible for their sometimes bad reputation and it does not give the right justice to their real nature and temperament.
Haveing said that, I come to the requested comment on cage size: First to all, the top of the cage should be at least 6 ft above the ground to give the tokay a feeling of security. Second, the tank should be at least 4 ft tall ( 4 times its own total length still is not a lot of vertical climbing distance for an arboreal lizard) . If challenging this minimum height, there should be only a very thin layer of substrate. Sizewise, I think in some cases one may accept 65g, but to be honest, I stick to 100g as the bare minimum for a pair and I do recommend 200g. The smaller the cage, the more effort you have to spend on apt structuration of hidings, temp zones, activity zones and the like.
You have to have some experiences and be well familiar with a tokays need to provide best structuration of such a small tank. It is easier in larger ones.
Sadly tokays do survive decades in even extremely inappropriate sized enclosures and do even breed under such conditions -as chicken do in old fashioned egg factories. But to me that observation is no excuse to restrict their territory to 25g or even smaller. You can keep a human in the cell of a prison for decades and keep him healthy and if you want prolific. But do you think that fits his needs well? Think of a 1 ft 250 g gecko to spend decades in a 25g. No wonder, they get aggressive and immobile.
Sadly again, tokays are cheap. Obviously many keepers do not want to spend lots of space and money on the housing of such a cheap species, especially since it seemingly thrives in tiny tanks. Thus, the vast majority of captive tokays has to live in way too small enclosures. What a pity! Luckily this has changed in the last two decades at least in central Europe. For example, I doubt that there are still many experienced herpers around here in germany which do use tanks smaller than 100g for tokays.
Aside of that, believe me: It is worth it. Increase in activity and reduction in aggressivity upon using larger tanks is very obvious.
Thats just my 2 cts. Well, not just MY 2 cts, I can name you a lot of herpers, readily seconding that. Anyhow, I know, many of the tokay keepers around here, especially Cliff, do not like my opinion, but it is as it is. IMHO, herpers should stay away from collecting species like stamps, trying to make most efficient use of limiting herp room capacity by reducing the sizes of individual enclosures to the very minimum needed to keep animals alive and prolific. Herps are living beings, not stamps. Some people tend to forget that.
I´d rather say, we should try to provide for each species we keep the most reasonable replacement for their natural habitat and territory we can provide. Of course, with a given room size, this means less species and less tanks than for the other philosophy. Obviously this idea still is not very widespread on a worldwide scope, which I think is a pity. But maybe, you may at least think about it.
To me a few large, well structured tanks with few species showing most of their natural behavious is much more satisfying then endless racks with the bare minimum of things the species living in need.

Now do with my post, whatever you want. I only wrote it, because it was requested several times.

Best regards

Ingo


P.S.: I Apologize for my english, I wrote this in a hurry between two meetings and I am not a native speaker.

[Ingo]

Originally Posted by jpmarcel

Wow. To say Tokays are among the least aggressive (or defensive) gecko species has got to be one of the most misleading bits of info I've seen posted. What gecko would you say is more aggressive?

I know, it is provocative but I keep saying it, because saying tokays are an aggressive and nasty species is one of the most misleading bits of info I've seen posted.
Ethan is totally right and hence I want to quote him again:

I think part of the problem here is what one's definition of "aggressive" is. The actual definition of aggression is "a forceful action or procedure as an unprovoked attack". I don't' find tokays in general to be aggressive by that definition. They don't tend to just randomly attack if not provoked. They are however quite defensive. Mine would much rather mind their own business than attack you though. It's only when pushed beyond their natural comfort zone that they tend to get an attitude. And I think that's perhaps what Ingo is trying to say.

Thus I strongly disagree in calling tokays aggressive and in comparison to other geckos, I consider tokays to be less agressive than the average species - unless you challenge their defense behaviour by inappropriate housing conditions.
This at least is, what you observe in well furnished large tanks.
To stay in the same genus: G. ulikovskii, G. monarchus, G. grossmanni, G. petricolus and probably more do have a much more pronounced intraspecific aggression potential than tokays. To ge beyond the genus: Almost any Phelsuma species has a higher aggression potential. Tarentola species are way more aggressive...just to name a few.

Think of gecko species, for which you can absolutely rely on even the largest male not injuring the smallest female or not leaving any bitemarks upon mating.
Tokays are clearly on top of that list.
Mating ritual of tokays is among the most ritualized and peaceful ones in the gecko world.

In those of my mixed species tanks, which include tokays, I never have seen any real fight or injury with tokays involved. And I do mix tokays with other species since more than 20 years.
Even if directly hassled by a cagemate. Tokays only show impressive defense posture but do not seriously bite but run for shelter if the situatiion tends to escalate.


I stick to what I said: Agression potential in tokays is low if compared to the average of the gecko world.


Best

Ingo

[holocaustto]

Thanks a lot Ingo for your time and huge explaination.
I red it all and I really think it makes a lot of sence.
Until know, I've tried to give my Tokays as much space as I can. I just started with this specie this year and hopefully will have the money and the space to make a really nice and big tank someday.

(English ist auch nicht meine Muttersprache, aber du schreibst es wunderbar)

[cliff_f]

Yes I do disagree with you. You say that you need 100g to keep them live and prolific they why are mine still very alive and very prolific and they are not kept in 100g tank. Tokays adapt they have necessities that need to be meet in their enclosure and they can live long healthy, happy and very prolific lives. I have been proving that for years now. What bothers me is you try to make it sound like your way is the only way to keep a healthy tokays, and that is not true. There are many other breeders/keepers out there that have proven this. I am just one of the few people who will stand up and speak out. You make it sound like that tokays are just going to up and die if they are not in a 100g tank and that is bull**!$ I have proven this I have some very happy healthy tokays and they are not in a 100g tank. That is fine if you don’t agree with me but there is no need to tell everyone that they are bad people/keepers just because they don’t keep a animal like you do. Yeah you might not out right say it but that is pretty much what you are implying, and I don’t take to kindly to that when it is not true I am a excellent tokay keeper just take a look at my animals.

As for aggression mine are only aggressive if you try to touch them or their eggs they do not attack me just because I am in their cage. The only time I have to worry about them biting me is if I am trying to handle them. They are just protecting their self they are not trying to bite me just because I am in their territory.

[Riverside Reptiles]

As for aggression mine are only aggressive if you try to touch them or their eggs they do not attack me just because I am in their cage. The only time I have to worry about them biting me is if I am trying to handle them. They are just protecting their self they are not trying to bite me just because I am in their territory

GREAT!!! You and Ingo (as well as myself) actually agree on this then! No problems.

Originally Posted by cliff_f

Yes I do disagree with you. You say that you need 100g to keep them live and prolific they why are mine still very alive and very prolific and they are not kept in 100g tank. Tokays adapt they have necessities that need to be meet in their enclosure and they can live long healthy, happy and very prolific lives. I have been proving that for years now. What bothers me is you try to make it sound like your way is the only way to keep a healthy tokays, and that is not true. There are many other breeders/keepers out there that have proven this. I am just one of the few people who will stand up and speak out. You make it sound like that tokays are just going to up and die if they are not in a 100g tank and that is bull**!$ I have proven this I have some very happy healthy tokays and they are not in a 100g tank. That is fine if you don’t agree with me but there is no need to tell everyone that they are bad people/keepers just because they don’t keep a animal like you do. Yeah you might not out right say it but that is pretty much what you are implying, and I don’t take to kindly to that when it is not true I am a excellent tokay keeper just take a look at my animals.

Sometimes people just have to agree to disagree. As the old saying goes, "There's more than one way to skin a cat" (or in this case, house a gecko). I don't think that anyone is questioning your abilities to keep and breed tokays Cliff. I think that you might need to be a little less sensitive about the subject. And perhaps Ingo should be a little more sensitive to how he comes across sometimes. The fact is that both of you have a good bit of experience working with these animals and really, you could probably both learn a lot more from collaborating with each other as opposed to working against each other. I think that the biggest issue here is simply poor communication. Ingo's first language is not English. So perhaps some things come across the wrong way (in both directions). When stuff like this turns into a battle of who is right or wrong, nobody wins. What it's really about is the spreading of good information and I think that you both have a lot to contribute to that.

[Ingo]

Well said. Ethan.


And sorry, If I in fact may sound rude from time to time. That clearly is not my intention. Obviously german speech tends to be more forthright and a 1:1 translation into english does not always hit the right cadence.
If you understand a bit of german, you should read in german forums. I guess, you might be shocked reading what we still consider to be friendly conversation

BTW I have no doubt that Cliff is able to keep his tokays healthy and prolific and I never said anything like that.


Cheers

Ingo

[holocaustto]

Wich German forum would you recommend? Specially for Tokays.

[Ingo]

Of course the forum of the DGHT:
Go to DGHT.de and follow the links to the famous yellow forum

Ingo