New tokay and set up

aquamentus_11 · #1 11-12-2011, 12:18 PM

As promised: pics of my new tokay (Lurk). I think he's a bit too skinny, but I was told that he is only 6 mo and I've been moving his set up around. I think he just needs some time to get settled in.

set up w/o PVC hide. notice the bush-league tin foil over the end of the fogger hose to limit flow. the fogger is necessary in my house: the heating will bring his humidity down to 40% in no time. there's a hygrometer and thermometer in the upper right corner that you can't see.

skinny, but he did take one of the waxworms i left last night. not sure about the crickets.

you can see the larger white spot halfway down his right side where one of those puckered lesions I mentioned was. the others are completely gone so i assume this one will go with the next shed.

Anyway, that's my guy. How does he look? Any tips on the set up? Critiques? I emptied the whole bag of substrate in there....too much?

**Riverside Reptiles** · #2 11-12-2011, 02:36 PM

He looks VERY thin man. You shouldn't be able to see his spine and hips, etc at all. You definitely need to make it a priority to get him eating well (and quickly). Between those odd lesions and how thin he is, it makes me wonder about his over all health. But your best bet for the time being is minimal stress, maximum food.

As for your set up, he would benefit greatly from more space...vertical space in particular.That tank's not going to be appropriate for a full grown tokay. Something along the lines of an 18 x 18 x 24 zoo-med or exo-terra would be much better. Or, you could certainly make something yourself if you have the skills and a place to do it. Some vertical hides like pvc tubes, cork bark, bamboo tubes, etc are a MUST have. These guys almost never utilize the floor of a cage unless they're sick, or have no other choice. I see your day time light, but what (if anything) are you using for heat at night? Instead of that light bulb, you might try a ceramic heat emitter (CHE) and a thermostat. This will provide heat 24/7 without putting off any light. Light is not needed since these guys are nocturnal and it likely just causes more uneeded stress. A CHE will screw right into that light hood that you already have and will last 10 times longer than any light would anyways. Also, is your thermometer analog or digital? The analog ones are mostly junk. So if you don't have a digital one, you should go to home depot or walmart and find yourself an indoor/outdoor thermometer w/ a probe. A cheap investment.

aquamentus_11 · #3 11-12-2011, 04:01 PM

I switch to a ceramic bulb at night (you can see it on top of the lid in the pic). I have an upright PVC pipe that I keep in the lefthand corner, but removed for the pic so you could see the rest. I had planned on buying a 20 gal tank for more vertical room, but wasn't sure when to switch him over. Right now, I'm worried about switching him to another new cage: I think I need to let him settle and bulk up.

I had a feeling he was too thin, but I was able to see his hips and spine when I first got him, so I wasn't aware of how bad things really were. I asked the pet store to get some vitamin supplements and they now have some liquid products that I would have to deliver via syringe into his mouth. The dosing schedules sounded pretty intensive and invasive and I thought that the stress of forcing vitamin water down his throat would be doing as much harm as good. However, if you think he needs it, it'll get done.

I need a list of things that I can do to get him healthy. I have the T (will grab a digital thermometer tomorrow), humidity, substrate (cage is going to have to wait until I think he can handle a move) and proper food items. I am leaving him ALONE, minimizing even being in the same room, and offering waxworms and crickets at twilight (both dusted and gut loaded). How can I get him eating again? The liquid vitamins claim to be appetite stimulants, but I just can't imagine him responding well to having things crammed down his throat while being held. Need input.

**Riverside Reptiles** · #4 11-12-2011, 04:50 PM

I don't recommend any of those liquid vitamin products. Nothing more than snake oil (no pun intended) in my opinion. There's no regulations on what they can put in that crap so who knows what it really is, and like you said, the stress of the treatment is probably more detrimental than anything else. I'd just use the ceramic heat emitter and ditch the light (unless you need them both on to achieve proper temps). Make sure when you get a digital thermometer that it's an indoor/outdoor one with a probe. THis will allow you to see what your temps are on both the warmer side and the cooler side of the enclosure. One that displays highest/lowest temps is also helpful. You should be able to find one for around $10-$15. I don't normally recommend waxworms as they're so high in fat and low in any sort of anything else, but in this case, he is SO thin that getting him to eat anything is a good thing. And he can obviously benefit from a bit of extra fat. That substrate will work, but I would put his worms in a bowl or something if you're going to use it. You don't want him to be getting mouthfuls of that when he makes a grab fr the worms. Well gut loaded and dusted crickets and/or tropical roaches are really the best thing for him though. And tokay generally respond to the movement of them better than that of a worm. But again, at this point, feed him as much as he wants of whatever he'll eat. As for lowering stress, you might even want to go as far as taping some paper over the front of the tank for the time being to make him feel safer.

**Riverside Reptiles** · #5 11-12-2011, 05:20 PM

Nate, just to give you a little positive optimistic feedback...check out this link to a thread about a male of mine that I got a while ago that was about in the same condition as yours, and it has pics of what he looked like 2 months later with proper care. He's now very well established and the proud father of multiple offspring. So, it can be done

link--> New male Tokay...

aquamentus_11 · #6 11-13-2011, 09:41 AM

Awesome, I can't wait to get him up to monster status. Yeah, I'll pull him through and when I do, it'll be due to all the help you've given.

I papered up his tank last night and shut the door to his room. Found poop this morning. It's not much, but it's a start. Looks like he took 2 waxies, but re: the crickets, I can't tell.

I'm headed to grab a better thermometer in a few minutes and am chucking the UVB bulb (he's next to a window anyway, so it should keep his circadian in line). As far as thermostats go though, I'm clueless. Any suggestions? Keep in mind that I'm a grad student so the assets are a bit limited...

I hope I haven't done him a disservice by getting him. I did a lot of research prior to buying him, but it's becoming increasingly obvious that it wasn't enough. I was going to be a vet before switching to humans and DETEST the idea of being one of those owners who jeopardizes my animal through my own ignorance. I appreciate/require all the tips and practical tricks of the trade you've given. Please keep them coming and thank you.

aquamentus_11 · #7 11-13-2011, 11:49 AM

can't seem to get the T high enough with the ceramic emitter. What's the word on red and black bulbs?

aquamentus_11 · #8 11-14-2011, 09:03 AM

he's eating, but i worry about his ethical inclinations now... the tank looks like a mini Braveheart battlefield: cricket legs all over the place, 2.5 waxies gone and the remaining one ravished and murdered. maybe i should rename him Jack (as in the Ripper)

Tokayy · #9 11-14-2011, 10:04 AM

Nice fogger you have there. Do you find it works pretty damn efficient? I was thinking about buying one but didnt know how many times it would mist in a day, if it would make it too wet, and was semi struggling to justify the price. Your tank looks great though. However, you may wanna fatten up your Tokay. I have about an 8 month old and she does not look that skinny. I would start giving her the proper nutrition as in gutloaded crickets with calcium if you are unable to get your hands on roaches.

ScottyB · #10 11-14-2011, 10:14 AM

Jack would be a good name. As for thermostats I found one for seedling plants that works just fine and is fairly cheep. read a bunch of reviews on it and a bunch of them said they used it for there herps. Its made by a company called hydro farm.

and as for red or black bulbs. black is much better than red. dont know how many things ive read about herps not being able to see red but it was obvious that it kept my bearded dragon up at night and my you can see how dilated my tokays eyes were in the red light. So black would be best.