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  1. #1
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    Default Progressive Change in a CB Granite Calico Tokay *Large Pic Heavy*


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    I have never seen the color change of a Tokay morph documented so I thought people would find this as interesting as I did. This girl is one of 14 from the same parents and looks like she will be the only one changing. She started at 5 months old last September and is still changing some today.

    6-25-2014 - One month old


    8-30-2014 - I thought she was going to be another high contrast normal colored het


    10-4-2014 - After a few weeks of not seeing her due to back to back expo weekends, I knew something was going on.


    10-17-2014



    10-23-2014 - Fired and unfired



    10-31-2014 - White was coming in and her eyes were starting to change




    11-8-2014




    11-14-2014 - She is now a full Granite with minimal white.



    11-21-2014



    12-5-2014


    12-11-2014 - Her eyes are pretty much solid black.



    12-19-2014



    1-3-2015



    1-10-2015



    1-21-2015


    1-26-2015 - One eye remains black while the other is developing silver.



    2-19-2015





    I don't know how long it will be until I hit another random visual, but I feel very lucky to have hatched this girl. She will be paired up in 2016 with an Granite Calico that is at least 50% white so I'm hoping that will boost my odds.
    An angry Dragon may eat you, but an angry Woman is truly dangerous

    23.33.34 Gekko gecko
    1.2 Gekko vittatus
    1.2 Gekko badenii

    1.2 Gekko siamensis
    1.2 Gekko smithii
    1.2 Gekko stentor

    1.2 Leachianus
    1.1 Aristelliger lar
    1.2 Ptychozoon lionatum

    3.7 Geckolepis maculata
    2.3 Geckolepis typica

  2. #2
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    Nice pics.
    Just a word of caution though. I don't know that it's really appropriate to call the normal siblings, "hets" since we know now that this morph isn't simple recessive and the term heterozygous seemingly doesn't really apply. It gives newbies to tokay genetics the misconception that if they put two hets together, they would get a certain percentage of homo babies as a result. Obviously that's not the case.
    Ethan
    ~Riverside Reptiles~
    Riverside Reptiles Online

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    To ALL GU members, please take the time to look through old threads and/or use the search feature BEFORE asking questions. GU is a huge archive of information and most of the info that you're looking for is already there just waiting for you to find it.
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    Likes Aimless, Marauderhex liked this post

  3. #3
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    Holy crap! That's one hell of a progression. The eyes are stunning with the black and silver. The whole Tokay is stunning, but I keep getting drawn back to those eyes.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverside Reptiles View Post
    Nice pics.
    Just a word of caution though. I don't know that it's really appropriate to call the normal siblings, "hets" since we know now that this morph isn't simple recessive and the term heterozygous seemingly doesn't really apply. It gives newbies to tokay genetics the misconception that if they put two hets together, they would get a certain percentage of homo babies as a result. Obviously that's not the case.
    I've been careful to explain how difficult it is to produce them, how few have actually been produced, and how what we know from basic genetics don't apply, but I also haven't seen any big breeders call them anything else so I have just continued the terminology. This female's grandparents were visual morphs so that should at least make the term correct for the parents? Or is it just second generation+ away from the visuals that have to be bred to prove as carriers? I can only think to change them to probable or possible carrier instead of het or of direct morph descent.
    An angry Dragon may eat you, but an angry Woman is truly dangerous

    23.33.34 Gekko gecko
    1.2 Gekko vittatus
    1.2 Gekko badenii

    1.2 Gekko siamensis
    1.2 Gekko smithii
    1.2 Gekko stentor

    1.2 Leachianus
    1.1 Aristelliger lar
    1.2 Ptychozoon lionatum

    3.7 Geckolepis maculata
    2.3 Geckolepis typica

  5. #5
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    That's the whole thing with this morph and calling them "hets"...it doesn't appear that they are all proven carriers of the genes. I think at this point, with what we know so far, the terms "possible", or "potential" carriers should be used. They may well ALL be carries and we just haven't figured out how to unlock their genetics. But until then, better safe than sorry IMO.
    Ethan
    ~Riverside Reptiles~
    Riverside Reptiles Online

    Riverside Reptiles on Facebook

    To ALL GU members, please take the time to look through old threads and/or use the search feature BEFORE asking questions. GU is a huge archive of information and most of the info that you're looking for is already there just waiting for you to find it.
    GU's search feature ----> Geckos Unlimited - Search Forums

    GU's Rules: http://www.geckosunlimited.com/commu...les-rules.html


  6. #6
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    Gorgeous photos, Kita! Lots of eye candy!
    "If you can hear crickets, it's still summer." ;)

    "May the peace that
    You find at the beach
    Follow you home"

    Click: Leo Care Sheet's Table of Contents

    ===> No plain calcium, calcium with D3, or multivitamins inside an enclosure <===

    Oedura castelnaui ~ Lepidodactylus lugubris ~ Phelsuma barbouri ~ Ptychozoon kuhli ~ Cyrtodactylus peguensis zebraicus ~ Phyllurus platurus ~ Eublepharis macularius ~ Correlophus ciliatus ~ (L kimhowelli) ~ (P tigrinus) ~ (P klemmeri) ~ (H garnotii)

  7. #7
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    that's a very sexy gecko. thank you for posting progression photos; the color change is pretty awesome in sequence.
    [I]* Morelia spilota harrisoni * Morelia spilota mcdowelli *Liasis olivaceous olivaceous * Blaesodactylus boivini * /I]

  8. #8
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    I really dig the pics showing the transition of colors.

  9. #9
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    This is amazing!Its so beautiful!
    Owner of 1 Golden Gecko(Gekko badenii) and 3 Crested Geckos(Correlophus ciliatus)

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverside Reptiles View Post
    Nice pics.
    Just a word of caution though. I don't know that it's really appropriate to call the normal siblings, "hets" since we know now that this morph isn't simple recessive and the term heterozygous seemingly doesn't really apply. It gives newbies to tokay genetics the misconception that if they put two hets together, they would get a certain percentage of homo babies as a result. Obviously that's not the case.
    Hello Guys, It's been a while. I've had about 20 visual pairs of "Granite", Pied, "Calico", "Leucisitic", Melanistic, etc.

    To date, it is my belief based on what we've produced here, that there is no true visual Melanistic or Leucistic genetics in Tokay. Right now, all the above 'named' morphs appear to really be in the Pied complex. And there seems to be several genetically unrelated strands of Pied as well.

    Genetically Unrelated: Meaning that the mutation does not reside in the same 'place' on the DNA strand for all Pied Tokay. (Just like Leopard Gecko, there is currently 3 different strains of Albino that are not compatible with each other.)

    Most of our imported visual pairs produced all normal looking offspring. We hypothesized that they were all 'double het', meaning that they all carried the visual genetics for both parents.

    We line bred F-1 males back to their mother, and F-1 females back to their father and produced visuals that matched the parents. These F-1 visuals are also possible hets for the other parent. Any normal looking F-1 offspring also have a small chance of carrying the other parents genetics. A long shot to be sure.

    These also proved another assumption that the trait is recessive.

    Pied Complex: We bred all visually similar Tokay. The multi-colored patched Tokay pair, Like my Avatar, produced visual offspring. These we call true Calico Pied because of the multiple colors. The trait changes over time, especially up to puberty.

    This is know as "progressive pied". We have seen this in all of the complex to some extent.

    We have pied Tokay with patches that are 'normal' looking, or 'traditional pied'. We have several where the patches are 'granite' looking and we call them Granite Pied. These typically look anywhere from almost all white to very little white with patches of black and grey.

    From a pair of high white with small granite patches, we line bred an F-1 back to the parent and hatched a Granite Tokay. It produces a light blue tone in its base color from time to time. We have also produced Pied Granite prodigy as well from this group.

    From a traditional Pied to a Granite Pied we produced an all white with black eyes Tokay. She has since developed big normal looking patches and 'snake eyes'. Meaning some white has developed in the eyes as well. Proof that she is not really "Leucistic", but rather another progressive pied example.

    So, we have hypothesized that line breeding Granite within a related group should at some point produce some sort of progressive pied again. Normal looking F-1 offspring from a visual Granite pairing should produce all double het offspring assuming the genetics do not line up. Breeding those offspring to each other or back to their parents should produce a visual.

    And again, the other normal looking offspring only have a chance of carrying the other parents genetics. Or most likely, nothing at all. Given the work required to prove those out, in my estimation is not worth the work and years of waiting. I think it is worth noting the possibility of these genetics showing up later to any buyer of these 'normal' offspring. Just so if something does pop later, we'll have some history of the generations of captive breeding.

    There's my two bits. I hope everyone is good and all the best to the gang.

    Michael's Tokay Hoard
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