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  1. #11
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    Thanks for the response Herve.

    The problem is much of the information available is for domestic animals which are much larger in size. Just saying, it may be wise to use Miner all in very small amounts as well, especially if being fed variety of insects and/or variety of feed. If a larger amount of insects are fed, dusting more regularly can be dangerous. Mineral toxicity can be a problem as well in regards to Miner all, especially since insects are suppose already be a good source of minerals. What they appear to be lacking more is Vitamins, so this product makes me wonder. Some minerals are likely not even necessary. Just for those who are not familiar with mineral tolerance and toxicity.

    http://www.vet.unicen.edu.ar/html/Ar...NRC%202005.pdf


    • Seventeen minerals that are required by vertebrates:
    calcium, chlorine, chromium, cobalt, copper, fluorine, io-
    dine, iron, magnesium, manganese, molybdenum, phospho-
    rus, potassium, selenium, sodium, sulfur, and zinc;

    • Six additional minerals that may be required based on
    experiments that indicate beneficial effects when supple-



    mented to the diet: arsenic, boron, nickel, rubidium, silicon,
    and vanadium. However, specific biochemical functions
    have not been identified for these six,
    and there is not a con-
    sensus among nutritionists that these minerals are essential.


    EXPOSURE

    Animals may be exposed to toxic levels of minerals from
    a wide variety of sources. Feedstuffs, especially those de-
    rived from plants, are a common source of potentially toxic
    levels of minerals. Molybdenum and selenium occur natu-
    rally in soils of some regions at concentrations sufficient to
    cause certain plants to accumulate levels that can be toxic
    for animals. High soil, and consequently plant, concentra-
    tions of cadmium, lead, molybdenum, copper, and zinc are
    the primary minerals of concern from the application of
    municipal wastes and other biosolids to the land. Mining,
    smelting, and other industries are often associated with local
    areas of mineral contamination to the water, soil, and air,
    and, ultimately, the plants grown in that area. Feedstuffs of
    animal origin may also be sources of toxic levels of miner-
    als. For example, some types of fishmeals may be high in
    mercury because mercury bioconcentrates through the
    aquatic food chain.

    Mineral supplements are commonly added to animal di-
    ets to correct deficiencies found in pastures, forages, and
    other dietary ingredients. Some mineral supplements may
    contain potentially toxic levels of contaminating minerals,
    depending upon the source of the supplement and the method
    of its processing. Toxic levels of minerals may accidentally
    occur due to mistakes in feed formulation and manufactur-
    ing, or from contamination during storage or transportation.
    Such accidental administration can result in very high min-
    eral levels and cause acute toxicosis and death, whereas most
    other modes of introduction typically cause toxicosis only
    after chronic exposure. Surface water and occasionally even
    deep-well or domestic water supplies may contain excessive
    levels of certain minerals due to naturally high levels in the
    ground. Sulfur, sodium, manganese, selenium, and fluorine
    are among the minerals most likely to reach toxic levels in
    natural water supplies. Minerals may also be introduced into
    water supplies from industrial wastes, pesticide contamina-
    tion, and other sources of pollution. Finally, minerals such
    as arsenic, bromine, bismuth, copper, lithium, magnesium,
    silver, zinc, and some of the rare earths are sometimes added
    to feed or water as therapeutics or for growth promotion.
    Mistakes in use of these minerals have occasionally resulted
    in toxicoses.
    Last edited by cricket4u; 05-12-2015 at 01:07 AM.
    Currently keeping:

    Eublepharis gecko 2.1.0~Hemitheconyx gecko 1.0.0~Gekko gecko 1.0.0~Pogana Vitticeps 1.0.0~Varanus exanthematicus 1.1.0~Varanus acanthurus 1.0.0~Blue Tongue Skink 1.0.0~Red-eared slider 1.0.0

    Reptiles I have rehabilitated, rehomed or kept.
    All above species plus:


    Phelsuma Grandis~Rhacodactylus ciliatus~Paroedura~Rhacodactylus auriculatus ~Hemidactylus frenatus~Iguana~Turtles ~Snakes and too many more to name!

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by thorrshamri View Post
    I've kept repeating Elizabeth (and others) Zoomed Calcium, vitamins and minerals supplements do pose major issues as they are clearly overdosed with many of the micronutrients they contain. With minerals and even more with vitamins, too much is even more harmful on the long run than not enough.
    For example, the proper amount for reptiles of vitamin D3 is around 4000 IU/kg. Zoomed and Hagen products are way beyond this. An hypervitaminosis D3 may cause the same apparent symptoms than MBD and may even cause death. This, again, happens on the long run and cannot be observed by owners who only have had geckos for 1-2 years.

    • Herve, it is really common knowledge that too much D3 can cause hypervitamintosis (reverse MBD, so to speak). I've shared that alot.
    • What is not apparent from your comments is that I agree with much of what you report.
    • How do we know that the "proper amount of D3 for reptiles" is about 4,000 IU/kg?
    • As you know D3 is fat soluble. So it sticks around in our systems to do it's thing for awhile.
    • How do we know which minerals a gecko requires?
    • Can we generalize to herbivores as well as carnivores?
    • Are you saying that only one way of supplementing works for geckos?
    • I recommend what I personally do. Since I started keeping geckos 26.5 years ago (and some of them quite long term), I have never had any gecko experience MBD from either too much or too little supplementation. I consider a healthy diet as the primary source of nutrients. Then I lightly dust bugs (crickets and dubia) for additional nutrients and calcium to correct the large phosphorus to calcium imbalance present in insects.
    • I have had radiographs done on some geckos. There have never been bone density issues.

    I am not gaining any $$$ by saying this but the only way to go as far as supplements balance is concerned, be it about D3 or other micronutrients, is to use Miner-All
    I and dusting prey insects with it on every feeding.


    • Clearly the directions on the Miner-All label do NOT say to dust at every feeding.
    • Note copy and paste of label below.

    If, besides, prey insects receive a proper gutload with fresh greens and veg (do a little search on the forum as this topic has been widely covered), you almost don't need to provide anything else to your animals. I've been using Miner-all I for over a dozen of years, not a single case of MBD with my (many) geckos, apart from those who were acquired with MBD and arrived with it.

    Now I understand you may get confused with contradictory advice. What I can say is that I'm doing exactly the same than Jon Boone, who has successfully kept and bred over 600 gecko species during the past 30 years. As for me, I have 17 years of experience with some 150 species and enough knowledge in Chemistry and nutrition to know I'm giving you the best option.

    How to properly gutload crickets, roaches and other feeder insects:

    -I use wheat bran both as a substrate for insects and as food. I never leave them in the boxes in which they are sold but transfer them in PVC large boxes with ventilated lids covered with fine iron mesh.

    -some (not too much!) dog pellets as a source of protein. Cat pellets are to be avoided as they contain taurine, harmful to geckos.

    -You can use some organic corn flakes and fish flakes as well.

    -Offer a variety of greens, either organic or throughly washed: parsley, dandelion leaves and flowers, lamb lettuce, some green cabbage leaves (not too much of them), organic hay (sold for rodents in pet stores), spinach leaves, turnip leaves, water salad (cresson in French), all sorts of salads but never Iceberg lettuce which is toxic. All of these contain lots of calcium and other very beneficial nutrients, they are also the main diet for crickets, locusts and grasshoppers.

    -peeled oranges left in cups or boxes so that the crickets can eat them without soaking their substrate or attracting too much fruitflies.

    -a variety of peeled fruit and veg, preferrably rich in calcium, but variey in the food given to insects is THE key, much more important actually than seeking to offer lots of different species of insects as feeders. By the way, for reasons evoked a thousand times here (again, do a quick search on the forum), avoid mealworms, superworms and waxmoths, unless you use them as very occasional treats.
    Carrots-turnips-apples-pears- mango*-figs*-papaya*- banana- whatever is in the fridge except for tomatoes (toxic to reptiles). * means very rich in calcium, but you need to offer also veg and fruit that don't contain so much of it but which bring other key micronutrients such as provitamin A (carrots, apricots), iron (parsley), pectin (apples) and so on.

    Best of luck with your geckos, and I do encourage you to go through sticky posts in the nutrition section of the forum.

    Hervé
    "Miner-All formula with vitamin d-3 for insect eating reptiles and amphibians NOT exposed to natural sunshine, is the only high quality human grade calcium based product scientifically formulated with over 50 vital minerals and calcium ensuring optimum health and bone strength. Miner-All is ground to a micro fine powder sticking to all insects, from crickets to fruit flies. To complete your pets dietary requirements, vitamin gut load all insects or prey items with Sticky Tongue Farms Vit-All. Gutloading insects/prey items is the best way to introduce the proper amount of vitamins to reptiles and amphibians. We package Vit-All and Miner-All separately to preserve the integrity of both products. Mixing vitamins and minerals together in packaging degrade each other compromising the quality of both ingredients. We recommend herbivores, carnivores eating live prey and insect eating animals exposed to natural sunshine use Miner-All outdoor formula with no vitamin d-3.

    INSTRUCTIONS FOR USE: Shake can to blend ingredients.

    Coat insects by placing in plastic bag, shake gently until completely coated.

    NEWBORN TO HALF GROWN Use every feeding

    HALF GROWN TO SUB ADULT Use every second feeding

    ADULTS Use every third feeding.

    BREEDING ADULT FEMALES Use every second feeding.


    Miner-All indoor ingredients

    Calcium Carbonate, Dextrose, Zinc Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Magnesium Oxide, D- Activated Animal Sterol ( sorce of Vitamin D-3 Miner-All I only), Iron Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Ethyione Diamine Dihydriodide ,Cobalt Sulfate ,Sodium Selenite, Iron Oxide, Natural Berry flavors

    The following are trace elements naturally grown from aquatic vegetation found in Miner-All- Sulfur, Aluminum, Silicon, Copper, Bromine, Barium,Tellurium, Yttrium, Sodium, Lanthanum, Uranium, Neodymium, 44 Cerium, Titanium Vanadium Niobium Dysporosium Gadolinium Erbium Ytterbium Germinium Praseodymium Samarium Thallium Scandium Rubidium, Nickel Holmium Tin Thorium Europium Terbium Palladium Gallium Chromium Lutecium Thulium Tungsten Antimony, Cesium, Bismuth, Rhodium, Tantalum, Rhenium, Osmium Iridium

    Guaranteed Analysis per kilo Miner-All
    Calcium Min 34% max 36% Vitamin d3 4,400.00 I.U. Manganese 453.66 mg. Zinc 544.39 mg. Iron 136.10 mg. Copper 113.42 mg. Iodine 36.29 mg Cobalt 3.63 mg. Magnesium 453.66 mg. Selenium 11.023 mg."

    Have you checked out all the foods/veggies you recommend with the USDA Food link: Foods List?

    • Fish flakes are manufactured for fish. For instance, last I checked Tetramin Fish Flakes contain 46% protein.
    • I don't recommend any type of dog food. Why do you?
    • Check out wheat bran: Foods List
      73 grams calcium
      1,013 grams phosphorus
    • As far as I know parsley and pesticide-free dandelion flowers/greens seem excellent.
    • I have heard that spinach is a calcium binder.
    • What do you know about calcium binding, oxalic acid, and veggies?
    • I used to use alfalfa hay kob as part of my cricket diet. The crickets did not seem to eat it.

    By provitamin A, do you mean, in part, beta carotene? There is a study "out there" on chameleons which demonstrates chameleons do not metabolize vitamin A in the form of beta carotene. Perhaps with your access to the nitty gritty you can link that study? Can that research extend to all reptiles? Do we know?

    That's why preformed vitamin A acetate is an important supplement for our geckos. My exotics vet only recommends a wee pinch of Zoo Med's Reptivite per week. In addition the Reptivite label recommends dusting according to the weight of your gecko. Even on dusting days, not all insects are dusted.
    Last edited by Elizabeth Freer; 05-12-2015 at 05:46 PM. Reason: wheat bran link problems
    "If you can hear crickets, it's still summer." ;)

    "May the peace that
    You find at the beach
    Follow you home"

    Click: Leo Care Sheet's Table of Contents

    ===> No plain calcium, calcium with D3, or multivitamins inside an enclosure <===

    Oedura castelnaui ~ Lepidodactylus lugubris ~ Phelsuma barbouri ~ Ptychozoon kuhli ~ Cyrtodactylus peguensis zebraicus ~ Phyllurus platurus ~ Eublepharis macularius ~ Correlophus ciliatus ~ (L kimhowelli) ~ (P tigrinus) ~ (P klemmeri) ~ (H garnotii)

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricket4u View Post
    Thanks for the response Herve.

    The problem is much of the information available is for domestic animals which are much larger in size. Just saying, it may be wise to use Miner all in very small amounts as well, especially if being fed variety of insects and/or variety of feed. If a larger amount of insects are fed, dusting more regularly can be dangerous. Mineral toxicity can be a problem as well in regards to Miner all, especially since insects are suppose already be a good source of minerals. What they appear to be lacking more is Vitamins, so this product makes me wonder. Some minerals are likely not even necessary. Just for those who are not familiar with mineral tolerance and toxicity.

    http://www.vet.unicen.edu.ar/html/Ar...NRC%202005.pdf
    This is so completely vague. Apart from lead and a few other metals which are indeed poison for any living being, you can find a wide variety of minerals, even as traces, in reptile cells. Copper, iron, zinc, and many more are important for other metabolic functions such as the immune system, intracellular transports and the endocrinian system, to quote only a few. If there had been overdoses issues with Miner-All I:

    -I would have known it. Remember I work with people whose speciality is nutrition for animals at large.

    -Over such a long period of time and with so many animals, I would have had issues. I had none implying overdoses of such or such mineral with this brand.

    -Others would criticize it, not only you and Elizabeth. From both the US and Europe, I've heard hundreds of times it is the #1 supplement by far in terms of balance, quality of the ingredients and % of actually absorbable micronutrients. You know, not all, say, calcium is the same. It depends in which form it is used, the same applies to other minerals. This is a safe and reliable product that has been used over many years by tons of advanced breeders and hobbyists. As for insects being, I quote, "a good source of minerals", it depends on the species of insects you use, on how they are gutloaded...Things are a tad more complicated than this! As for not using it on every feeding, let me give you a hint. Some genuses and species have calcium sacs, such as Afroedura, Phelsuma, Uroplatus...Calcium is stored in these sacs in the first place. Females which do not receive dusted insects on every feeding have smaller sacs and produce less eggs, I can tell you that from my own animals.

    Now I'd really like nobody here introduces confusions into the less advanced keepers' minds only because of individual preferences with no real scientific grounds to defend such or such other supplement. Moreover, with some species, if you don't supplement then often, such as with Phelsuma, Paroedura and many more, you are more likely to create calcium crashes or deficiencies in other minerals than do some good.
    "Thorr Geckos" private breeder in Normandy.

    Specialized in Ptenopus, Pachydactylus, Chondrodactylus, Hemidactylus, Ptyodactylus, Uroplatus genera, AFTs, picta, Gehyra marginata, South Americans, Ptychs...

    FORUM RULES HERE! PLEASE READ THEM CAREFULLY, ESPECIALLY NEWCOMERS TO GU! http://www.geckosunlimited.com/commu...les-rules.html
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  4. #14
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    it depends on the species of insects you use, on how they are gutloaded...

    Some genuses and species have calcium sacs, such as Afroedura, Phelsuma, Uroplatus...Calcium is stored in these sacs in the first place.
    This is why one dusting recommendation is not fit for everyone or every species.
    Currently keeping:

    Eublepharis gecko 2.1.0~Hemitheconyx gecko 1.0.0~Gekko gecko 1.0.0~Pogana Vitticeps 1.0.0~Varanus exanthematicus 1.1.0~Varanus acanthurus 1.0.0~Blue Tongue Skink 1.0.0~Red-eared slider 1.0.0

    Reptiles I have rehabilitated, rehomed or kept.
    All above species plus:


    Phelsuma Grandis~Rhacodactylus ciliatus~Paroedura~Rhacodactylus auriculatus ~Hemidactylus frenatus~Iguana~Turtles ~Snakes and too many more to name!
    Likes Aimless liked this post

  5. #15
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    Elizabeth,

    We are dealing with insectivorous, or partly insectivorous species in this thread. Not with reptiles feeding on meat (crocs for example) nor pure vegetarians (green iguanas), so what I am saying is valid for insectivorous geckos, some of which may also eat pollen or fruit.

    Why having added some colored text here and there? I find it hard to decipher your extremely long post!

    Data about the nutrional needs can be easily found in reptile vet books and publications. I mainly use those published by Lionel Schilliger, Ph. D. in veterinarian medecine for reptiles and amphiians, the reference author and teacher in the main vet school here. You can find similar contents with the same values and the same required minerals in American Reptile vet books!

    I too have had X-ray photos of some of my geckos. None of them had bone issues, that said, X-ray photos only show the bone density, i.e. if calcium is in sufficient amount to ensure enough bone solidity. That does in no way show the amount of other minerals actually assimilated. You need a blood test for this. I have done several on geckos, all of them showed sufficient amounts of magnesium, iron, copper, zinc, enough traces of cobalt, silver, and other harmless metals- and yes, you need all these to have a given metabolism properly working!

    I am really sorry to say but 1) as you know, it's fairly late for me right now 2) your post is so long and messy I find it hard to know what information you need. If your own way of doing things work on your animals, fine! Though on a forum like this one, we need clear cut opinions and not losing all the readers and newbies into contradictory points of view. That's for everyone's interest. Imagine it's your first visit on the forum (which is not the case, lol), how would you feel by reading people who keep contradicting each other?

    Oxalates are present in many greens, from poison ivy to cabbage leaves, and not all of them are harmful. Calcium blockage? Spinach leaves are broadly used to consolidate tortoise shells and help them grow a healthy hard shell. You know, oxalates come into MANY chemical combinations and are likely to be different from one plant species from another. So that doesn't make too much sense to only speak about oxalates, and not about calcium oxalate, iron oxalate, and so forth.

    Provitamin A- commonly used as an eye unguent for conjonctivitis cases. I know the rumors, lol. Still, I'd be curious to know if there had been proven cases of vitamin A mistransformation and cases of blindness on reptiles fed with such supplements. I am aware of absolutely zero such cases.

    Keep also in mind not all owners bother to gutload insects, or on the contrary leave supplements on the insects food. That completely changes the "recommended doses" in both cases.

    That said, if you want to be helpful, keep in mind 80-90% of the GU members have little experience with geckos. They need simple facts and solutions which work easily, as well as warnings about what not to do. Years ago, people were completely afraid of salmonella on reptiles. Proven cases of zoonoses with salmonella are so rare than it made the whole thing ridiculous. Plus, not all types of reptiles carry them, geckos usually don't, due to their skin structure and natural defenses on their scales. In other words, I shall be grateful of you could use a more constructive and more easy to decipher way of posting.
    "Thorr Geckos" private breeder in Normandy.

    Specialized in Ptenopus, Pachydactylus, Chondrodactylus, Hemidactylus, Ptyodactylus, Uroplatus genera, AFTs, picta, Gehyra marginata, South Americans, Ptychs...

    FORUM RULES HERE! PLEASE READ THEM CAREFULLY, ESPECIALLY NEWCOMERS TO GU! http://www.geckosunlimited.com/commu...les-rules.html
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  6. #16
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    The blue and red text are some things I'm questioning.

    I've indented my comments with the bullets for ease of reading, I hope. Stick with it if you can. Thought that would be the easiest way to address my concerns.
    Last edited by Elizabeth Freer; 05-11-2015 at 11:54 PM.
    "If you can hear crickets, it's still summer." ;)

    "May the peace that
    You find at the beach
    Follow you home"

    Click: Leo Care Sheet's Table of Contents

    ===> No plain calcium, calcium with D3, or multivitamins inside an enclosure <===

    Oedura castelnaui ~ Lepidodactylus lugubris ~ Phelsuma barbouri ~ Ptychozoon kuhli ~ Cyrtodactylus peguensis zebraicus ~ Phyllurus platurus ~ Eublepharis macularius ~ Correlophus ciliatus ~ (L kimhowelli) ~ (P tigrinus) ~ (P klemmeri) ~ (H garnotii)

  7. #17
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    Maybe tomorrow is better.

    Take for instance placing your feeders on a bed of wheat bran. My United States Dept of Agriculture link shows wheat bran to be extremely poor in calcium and super high in phosphorus!

    Sorry that you find my reply confusing/messy. I broke up quoting you with my replies in bulleted form.
    "If you can hear crickets, it's still summer." ;)

    "May the peace that
    You find at the beach
    Follow you home"

    Click: Leo Care Sheet's Table of Contents

    ===> No plain calcium, calcium with D3, or multivitamins inside an enclosure <===

    Oedura castelnaui ~ Lepidodactylus lugubris ~ Phelsuma barbouri ~ Ptychozoon kuhli ~ Cyrtodactylus peguensis zebraicus ~ Phyllurus platurus ~ Eublepharis macularius ~ Correlophus ciliatus ~ (L kimhowelli) ~ (P tigrinus) ~ (P klemmeri) ~ (H garnotii)

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricket4u View Post
    This is why one dusting recommendation is not fit for everyone or every species.
    I have given earlier in this thread recommendations to properly gutload insects, at least the most commonly used, i.e. roaches, crickets and grasshoppers/locusts. Now if you feed your geckos with, say, Pachnoda larvae (rose beetles) or firebrats, that's a completely different story, but who really does that as a staple diet?

    Now I find it to be an extremely bad idea to have such a discussion on an "introduce yourself" thread.

    1. that's the best way to upset many members new to the forum when they see their introduction thread serves as a place for contradictory info and extremely long posts they might not want to read.

    2. As you both know, Liz and cricket, there are places devoted on this forum for nutritional issues. These places are NOT in this part of the forum

    3. I forgot to mention the particular texture of Miner-All I which really sticks to insects for a significant amount of time, unlike other supplements which barely stay stuck on prey for a few minutes at best.

    4. By putting into question what a moderator advises to do to a new owner, you somehow make the forum lose some credit, while I'm speaking out of experience, readings and theorical knowledge on nutriotional facts.

    I want to make it clear I will neither accept trolling posts with no real interest nor endless debates which only the concerned posters find interest in. I have never said "do as I say as it is the ONLY way to do things". It's just the simplest and most efficient way to deal with newcommers questions. People with little gecko experience like many of our members need that. It's completely fine if you both do researches online and in books and use your personal experience, but it has to be simplified in this part of the forum, made more accessible to the vast majority of members, and info should be better understandable, clearer and more organized.

    That said, the interest of the forum, of the vast majority of members and of the team which rule the forum will always come first, and we definitely don't want to spend lots of time giving proper advice to then realize such or such member is destroying what we have carefully thought about and written about. This won't happen. Clearly. FULL STOP.
    "Thorr Geckos" private breeder in Normandy.

    Specialized in Ptenopus, Pachydactylus, Chondrodactylus, Hemidactylus, Ptyodactylus, Uroplatus genera, AFTs, picta, Gehyra marginata, South Americans, Ptychs...

    FORUM RULES HERE! PLEASE READ THEM CAREFULLY, ESPECIALLY NEWCOMERS TO GU! http://www.geckosunlimited.com/commu...les-rules.html
    Likes Aimless liked this post

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elizabeth Freer View Post
    Take for instance placing your feeders on a bed of wheat bran. My United States Dept of Agriculture link shows wheat bran to be extremely poor in calcium and super high in phosphorus!
    There are tons of varieties of "wheat", all with different nutritional values. Depends for example on which season it is harvested, on the genetics of such or such type of wheat, on soil where it grows, on what chemicals the farmers use to have them grow faster. It's just like as if I was saying, "a human body contains 70% of water". Even in the middle of July in Sahara, or after 10 pints of beer at the pub?
    "Thorr Geckos" private breeder in Normandy.

    Specialized in Ptenopus, Pachydactylus, Chondrodactylus, Hemidactylus, Ptyodactylus, Uroplatus genera, AFTs, picta, Gehyra marginata, South Americans, Ptychs...

    FORUM RULES HERE! PLEASE READ THEM CAREFULLY, ESPECIALLY NEWCOMERS TO GU! http://www.geckosunlimited.com/commu...les-rules.html

  10. #20
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    I totally agree that newbies need easy-to-follow guidelines for insect diets and supplementing. Specific and safe very high calcium and very low phosphorus veggie suggestions to add moisture, et cetera, is my goal. That's why I've been recommending what I do for a long time.

    These are my questions in one place:

    • Herve, it is really common knowledge that too much D3 can cause hypervitamintosis (reverse MBD, so to speak). I've shared that alot.
    • What is not apparent from your comments is that I agree with much of what you report.
    • How do we know that the "proper amount of D3 for reptiles" is about 4,000 IU/kg?
    • As you know D3 is fat soluble. So it sticks around in our systems to do it's thing for awhile.
    • How do we know which minerals a gecko requires?
    • Can we generalize to herbivores as well as carnivores?
    • Are you saying that only one way of supplementing works for geckos?
    • I recommend what I personally do. Since I started keeping geckos 26.5 years ago (and some of them quite long term), I have never had any gecko experience MBD from either too much or too little supplementation. I consider a healthy diet as the primary source of nutrients. Then I lightly dust bugs (crickets and dubia) for additional nutrients and calcium to correct the large phosphorus to calcium imbalance present in insects.
    • I have had radiographs done on some geckos. There have never been bone density issues.

    You mention you dust with Miner-All Indoor at every feeding. Clearly the directions on the Miner-All label do NOT say to dust at every feeding. That's why I quoted the Miner-All Indoor label above.

    Have you checked out all the foods/veggies you recommend with the USDA Food link: Foods List

    • Fish flakes are manufactured for fish. For instance, last I checked Tetramin Fish Flakes contain 46% protein.
    • I don't recommend any type of dog food. Why do you?
    • Check out wheat bran: Show Foods
      73 grams calcium
      1,013 grams phosphorus

      I believe that it's quite important for all dry insect diets/"bedding" to have guaranteed analyses and to be readily available. The United States Department of Agriculture's wheat bran link I show clearly indicates that wheat bran is way overbalanced in phosphorus. I am curious how we can know the ratios of ingredients of the multiple wheat brans you suggest.
    • As far as I know parsley and pesticide-free dandelion flowers/greens seem excellent.
    • I have heard that spinach is a calcium binder.
    • What do you know about calcium binding, oxalic acid, and veggies? As are my questions above, I am asking you, not challenging you.
    • I used to use alfalfa hay kob as part of my cricket diet. The crickets did not seem to eat it.
    Last edited by Elizabeth Freer; 05-12-2015 at 10:46 PM. Reason: corrected wheat bran link
    "If you can hear crickets, it's still summer." ;)

    "May the peace that
    You find at the beach
    Follow you home"

    Click: Leo Care Sheet's Table of Contents

    ===> No plain calcium, calcium with D3, or multivitamins inside an enclosure <===

    Oedura castelnaui ~ Lepidodactylus lugubris ~ Phelsuma barbouri ~ Ptychozoon kuhli ~ Cyrtodactylus peguensis zebraicus ~ Phyllurus platurus ~ Eublepharis macularius ~ Correlophus ciliatus ~ (L kimhowelli) ~ (P tigrinus) ~ (P klemmeri) ~ (H garnotii)

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