[viktor]

I frequently find my uroplatus sleeping up near the lights, where it is the warmest. Especially the phantasticus.

Originally Posted by allen

Same here, only in september when it was 15-16°C night and around 24°C day. But like you said, they have such an enviroment to crawl around so it is possible that they find a 18-24°C dayspot to rest at.


Maybe it would be indeed better to provide a relative large cage with some heat at the top and cool at the bottom. Good airflow due to screen and/or computerfans at the top. We will see and try to realize....

[the-1]

All factors discussed thus far (stress, parasites, temperature, husbandry, etc.) in no doubt contribute to the overall acclimation and ultimately the success of keeping these animals in captivity. I'm simply curious as to the parasite loads these animals come in with as I think it plays a major role in their acclimation. Whoever said that it is in the parasites best interest to keep the host alive is right but outside of natural conditions, this is outside the parasite's control (the ability to reinfest, the supressed immunity of captive animals, etc) and they often take over.

In most cases (through my experience with herps outside of Uroplatus complex as my experience with these animals is limited) improper husbandry/shipping/diet change, etc causes undue stress resulting in a weakened immune system or different allocation or resources (e.g. the flight or fight example mentioned earlier) resulting in parasite takeovers... So although stress would be the trigger, I would still continue to argue parasites play a major role. An animal should be able to recover from a stressful experience given proper care and husbandry conditions unless, because of that experience, the immune system was weakened and then taken over by a pathogen and continually weakened even when placed in the proper environment.

Still curious about these things:

How many people treat newly acquired animals upon acquisition?
Do they get set-up in naturalistic enclosures or sterile environments?
Fecal results?

I’m hoping someone can speak from experience on parasite loads in newly imported animals…

Also, how does everyone clean their enclosures? Spot clean every day? Once per week? Entire substrate change? How often?

[crestedtimm]

Now this is a thread....!

I will be short, but I will say that this is quite a good discusion. I have limited experience with most species of Uroplatus, with my most extensive knowledge about the guentheri. My animals (guentheri) are subjected to high 80s-90s this time of the year, and later on in the year (winter) they will experience temps in the 40s. This formula (dry winter-low temps, wet summer-high temps) has been instumaental in my breeding success.

Mainly Im just putting forth my experiences in reference to High-temps and vitality.

My experiences with wc have been similar as well, I have kept most species below 75 ( because that is the common knowledge) but lately have started keeping lineatus, henkeli, and sameiti , in screen cages, outside, under large oak trees. I live in Cent. Fla, USA, with daily temps in the 90s sometimes and given that it is the rainy season now, they are loving it!

I know of one individual who even keeps pietschmanni outside under the same conditions, in Miami.

BTW, I proactively treat all new aquisitions with panacur and albon, and used to aggresively use disposable furniture and paper towels when aquiring phants and ebenaui. I kinda lack consistensy in my techniques, but would say that I have had good success implementing whichever technique seems applicable given the circumstances. I will say that I have only lost those animals that I had a bad feeling about initially, I.e, those that appeared too weak upon aquisition.

Timmm

[RFB2]

I do not treat any W/C animals without them giving me a reason to do so. I feel that the stress caused from the frequent treatments can sometimes out way the negative affects that could be caused by the parasites. Most animals even humans unknowingly have parasites living in them at times. The host's condition tends to get out of hand when the host is stressed. If you eliminate the stress, healthy animals tend to balance out.

On the other hand, if I do see an animal start to behave in a negative fashion and believe the cause of this behavior is attributed to parasites, I will then administer medication.

[luevelvet]

Hey Nick,

I have a trio of WC Lineatus in a 2x2x4' screen cage. Average temps are in the mid 70's and I've noticed that its a bit too low for them. I spot clean that cage since it's not very practical to have soil on the bottom of a screen cage. It is as natural as you can make a screen cage, live plants with bamboo poles and other natural branches running vertically.

Also, I know the importer and may have access to samples from newly imported specimens. I know for a fact he does not provide them a "sterile" environment, actually it's more of an outdoor setup here in central Florida. All screen cages are in an uncovered greenhouse with shade cloth available should the sun get a bit too much. This is the same "facility" that produces a good number of captive bred Furcifer Pardalis, and does everything but incubate the eggs outdoors. In Florida weather. I can say that they had a good number of Sikorae, Lineatus and Henkeli's that were all outside full time.

I haven't received my clinical supplies to perform any analysis on their feces yet, however by sometime next week I should be able to tell you what I find.

Luis

[allen]

Originally Posted by RFB2

I do not treat any W/C animals without them giving me a reason to do so. I feel that the stress caused from the frequent treatments can sometimes out way the negative affects that could be caused by the parasites. Most animals even humans unknowingly have parasites living in them at times. The host's condition tends to get out of hand when the host is stressed. If you eliminate the stress, healthy animals tend to balance out.

On the other hand, if I do see an animal start to behave in a negative fashion and believe the cause of this behavior is attributed to parasites, I will then administer medication.

I have to go with RFB2 with this, all my WC animals(gekkos and chameleons) went directly in a natural viv, no stress what so ever(no pictures taking etc...) and a lot of water through misting and fogging. This for a few weeks and mostly the animals went fine. When this didn`t help, the following results with medication were variable.

When a wc animal is so heavely infested with parasites, it is very difficult to get them back on there feet. this together with the medication(which is basicly poison, especially for the parasites but gets to your gecko also) is a killer-combo in my opignion.

the parasite-problem is also due to not good shipping, to long from nature to eventually your viv at home, sometimes packed with dozens at the store in a small viv...
That`s why i always try to get them directly from the shipping bag into my place, to avoid as much stress as possible.

greetz
Allen

[jadrig]

Well, when a newly aquired WC Uroplatus is aquired...parasite load is not very high on the totem pole.

Hydration, humidity, temp, then food are the most important things.

After the animals is healthy enough to be treated for parasites...there is no point in treating the animal...

As long as you take care of the animal...there is no need to attempt to treat the animal for parasites.

Thats the approach that I take and I am satisfied that it is best to leave the MEDS out of these little animals diets...

Chameleons are different animals though...

[the-1]

I respect your opinion with regard to treating for parasites, as I've contemplated the pros and cons of doing so myself. But, I try to look at it from a different perspective.

These animals have gone through hell to get to the U.S. Captured, bagged, held over somewhere, transferred, probably held over again, sit at the exporters in shaudy enclosures, transferred, shipped halfway around the world in a bag full of other geckos in a box full of other herps, sorted through, bagged again, held at the importers, handled, carried around the country in a deli cup or put in another box before it arrives at your door (I've probably left out a step or two...). Personally, putting the animal in a suitable enclosure is the most important thing to do but besides that, if this animal is still alive after all that has happened from the time it was plucked off the tree or out of the bush, it can handle being picked up for 2 min for 3 days while I drop 4 drops of medication in its mouth.

Also, as someone mentioned previously, humans walk around with parasites all the time, as do our domesticated pets. True. But, is this desired? What do parasites do- they put a strain on the body. Why else do we dedicate so much to immunizations and vaccines for ourselves and our furry pets. To me, by saying there is no point to treating the animal is like saying there is no point to treat your dog or cat if it were to contract worms.

Consider this. If you have an animal that has been treated (as many of you have stated you'll only treat if absolutely necessary) and one that has not been medicated, would you consider housing them together...or breeding them?

What is considered 'healthy enough'? If the animal is eating, drinking, and defecating? Animals do not show when they are feeling sick. For birds and herps in particular, this reduces any ability to breed or makes them more susceptible to being preyed upon. Typically why we encounter SUDS so often in these animals is because they simply don't show that they are going downhill until they are found dead on the cage floor. Like so many posts on here "It was fine yesterday but today it was dead" It's what they do naturally otherwise their fitness would be reduced. My point- just because the animal appears healthy doesn't necessarily mean it is. There is a lot going on that doesn't lend itself to be seen...

As I've said before, I'm no expert on Uroplatus, though I have extensive experience with other herps. I always treat WC animals. I hate to look back and say, well if I only would have treated it I could have ruled that out...

--nick

Originally Posted by jadrig

Well, when a newly aquired WC Uroplatus is aquired...parasite load is not very high on the totem pole.

Hydration, humidity, temp, then food are the most important things.

After the animals is healthy enough to be treated for parasites...there is no point in treating the animal...

As long as you take care of the animal...there is no need to attempt to treat the animal for parasites.

Thats the approach that I take and I am satisfied that it is best to leave the MEDS out of these little animals diets...

Chameleons are different animals though...

[jadrig]

Well, if the animal is healthy...it is healthy! There is a difference between healthy and healthier...

I have two female Henkels that I aquired during Dec/Jan. They looked aweful and i have pics to prove it. I hope they had some sort of crazy parasite load to look that bad...

I brought them back to life and they started doing well...each one was housed within vertically set up 10 gal tanks. The one took two or three weeks before it ate on its own...she was real bad off with no tail!

The started cycling so i introduced them to the males. My one femal has produced 4 good eggs and the other one has produced 1 good egg.

They probably would not have layed good eggs if i gave them meds.

Besides, I dont think that they would be any healthier if they had been treated properly by the best vet in the state.

Also, parasites are not designed to kill the animals (its kinda like the US Govt. trying to run G.M., but thats a whole nother story...HA!).
The animals are not going to die FROM these parasites.
They will die from poor husbandry or care that is not good enough.

My brother and I used to treat chameleons and day geckos with albon, panacure, and flagyl... Its not worth it with geckos plain and simple.

[RFB2]

Most parasites "not all" have a symbiotic relationship with the host. Having parasites does not mean that an animal is unhealthy. It does mean that the animal is at risk for an infestation. Infestations can be caused by stress. This stress can be caused by a number of issues like the ones you provided above. If an animal is unstressed and healthy its own immune system will eventually fight back and kill the intruders.

Point is, do you know how many times you have possibly infected yourself with parasites? It would make you sick. Every time you bite a finger nail, forget to wash your hands, etc you put yourself at risk. It is your healthy immune system that fights the infestation. How many times have you been wormed by some one only suspecting there could be an issue? Most likely never, but I bet you have had diarrhea a few times.

Once again eliminate the stress eliminate the parasites. Just my opinion.

Good luck