[RFB2]

Originally Posted by the-1

I respect your opinion with regard to treating for parasites, as I've contemplated the pros and cons of doing so myself. But, I try to look at it from a different perspective.

These animals have gone through hell to get to the U.S. Captured, bagged, held over somewhere, transferred, probably held over again, sit at the exporters in shaudy enclosures, transferred, shipped halfway around the world in a bag full of other geckos in a box full of other herps, sorted through, bagged again, held at the importers, handled, carried around the country in a deli cup or put in another box before it arrives at your door (I've probably left out a step or two...). Personally, putting the animal in a suitable enclosure is the most important thing to do but besides that, if this animal is still alive after all that has happened from the time it was plucked off the tree or out of the bush, it can handle being picked up for 2 min for 3 days while I drop 4 drops of medication in its mouth.

I agree to an extent, but what if those 2 minutes for 3 days is the straw the breaks the camels back. Most firmly believe that this causes more harm then good.

Also, as someone mentioned previously, humans walk around with parasites all the time, as do our domesticated pets. True. But, is this desired? What do parasites do- they put a strain on the body. Why else do we dedicate so much to immunizations and vaccines for ourselves and our furry pets. To me, by saying there is no point to treating the animal is like saying there is no point to treat your dog or cat if it were to contract worms.

We dedicate so much time and money, because we find it disgusting. Have you ever seen a fresh born liter of puppies 9/10 have worms because their immune system have not yet formed. We worm them because we find it disgusting and gross. How many wild animals get wormed? They survive just fine.


What is considered 'healthy enough'? If the animal is eating, drinking, and defecating? Animals do not show when they are feeling sick. For birds and herps in particular, this reduces any ability to breed or makes them more susceptible to being preyed upon. Typically why we encounter SUDS so often in these animals is because they simply don't show that they are going downhill until they are found dead on the cage floor. Like so many posts on here "It was fine yesterday but today it was dead" It's what they do naturally otherwise their fitness would be reduced. My point- just because the animal appears healthy doesn't necessarily mean it is. There is a lot going on that doesn't lend itself to be seen...

The found dead post annoy me also, but it happens. Unfortunately I firmly believe that most of these deaths are unknowingly cause by the animals keeper whether it is through inexperience or other mistakes. When and if I lose an animal ( and it has been a lone time) the first question I would ask is what did I miss? Followed by what did I do wrong?

As I've said before, I'm no expert on Uroplatus, though I have extensive experience with other herps. I always treat WC animals. I hate to look back and say, well if I only would have treated it I could have ruled that out...

--nick

Like you I do not claim to be an expert, but I do have 20+ years of husbandry experience behind me. This has been a great discussion. Thanks

[the-1]

I apologize for the format of this post, I haven't quite figured out how to work the quote tool yet...

I agree... very good discussion. I don't mean to come off as arrogant if I do, forums are meant to be an outlet for information, as I think this thread has done so numerous times.

I'm not trying to discredit the importance of good husbandry. Anyone that has seen my setups understands this. I'm merely attempting to bring another facet of Uroplatus keeping to light.

jadrig- "parasites are not designed to kill the animals."

We've already cleared this point. In the natural setting this is true. In a captive environment- this can often be thrown out the window. In a natural setting, reinfestation is limited by natural factors. In a captive setting it is limited by ones' husbandry practices. Direct hosts (i.e. coccidia) thrive in the environments we provide for these animals (moist, temps, etc). A parasite overload is more likely in a captive setting.

RFB2-

Parasites limit the lives of their hosts. Many dogs and/or cats wouldn't have the life spans they do if they weren't treated as they are. The lifespan of wild animals is a different story. Animals survive longer in captivity than they would in the wild- a function of multiple factors, of which I'm sure stress is important but I wouldn't discredit the reduced contact with parasites. Think about it this way. What wipes out entire populations of animals? Where I'm from with raccoons it's often distemper and with squirrels and coyotes it's often mange. This occurs when populations boom. Overlay this in the captive setting with our Uroplatus. Populations of parasites have the potential to go unchecked as the animal is often re-exposed, which gives the parasites a chance to overload so-to-speak.

I didn't mean to come off negatively about the "dead gecko" posts as they have their place on this forum as does any other post. I was simply trying to make the point that often times if you don't know why the animal died there is no way anyone else will either. Sure, most will say it was your husbandry or what not, but no one can be for sure- and that's the 'typical' thing to blame it on. As we have seen in other posts, many keepers are having success keeping their Uroplatus in temperatues outside the "accepted" range by many.

I simply wish keepers would keep a log of their animals so when something like that does happen they can look back and see if there were any abnormal patterns. This information would also be good background info for anyone attempting to comment on why they think the animal may have died. Saying, it's in the 70s in the daytime and somewhere in the 60s at night doesn't yield much info. for a good diagnosis. Personally, I record the daily highs and lows as well as the temperatures at misting for my Uroplatus. People could compare notes and maybe come up with some solid backing for the multiple assumptions that are often thrown around with this genus.

I have 10+ hardcore years of husbandry experience (primarily with snakes) and don't pretend to have even scratched the surface with what is really going on with any species (except maybe ball pythons), I just wish to share my thoughts with those who might be able to provide thoughtful insight and criticism.

--nick

[RFB2]

I do not think you come off as "arrogant" at all. I am enjoying this discussion. I think this is one however, that leaves us with no right or wrong answer with out having first hand experience of each others past situations. I understand all of your points. I feel that though with this one you should definitely give our suggestion some serious thought before you decide to make your purchase.

If you are going to med you animals regardless, I think it would be wise to give your geckos time to adjust to there new environment before the added stress on their systems.
If you read through the many pages on this forum and you were to sort out the “my gecko died” threads you will see some similarities that can lead you to the causes of death.
I think more people get nervous with this genus and for lack of better words “overdue it” which cause stress on the gecko which inevitably leads to the geckos death.

I have had success with several species of Uroplatus. I am currently working with Ebenuai and Phantasticus, because it is all that I have space for at the moment. I have had several hatchlings this year and hopefully many more to come.

All that I ask for you to do is recognize that the people giving you advice all have, if not breeding success with the genus, at least have been successfully keeping long term captives and are not shooting blindly.

Regards,
Rob

[viktor]

Parasites limit the lives of their hosts. Many dogs and/or cats wouldn't have the life spans they do if they weren't treated as they are. The lifespan of wild animals is a different story. Animals survive longer in captivity than they would in the wild- a function of multiple factors, of which I'm sure stress is important but I wouldn't discredit the reduced contact with parasites. Think about it this way. What wipes out entire populations of animals? Where I'm from with raccoons it's often distemper and with squirrels and coyotes it's often mange. This occurs when populations boom. Overlay this in the captive setting with our Uroplatus. Populations of parasites have the potential to go unchecked as the animal is often re-exposed, which gives the parasites a chance to overload so-to-speak.

Quite true, but consider the other side of the coin.

I have seen a lot of research that indicates that the autoimmune diseases so prevalent today could result from our sterile existence and lack of parasites. I recently heard of a new potential treatment for eczema that aims to introduce small concentrations of parasites to stimulate the immune system. It appears that if the immune system has nothing to do, it will start attacking the body.

Also, have you considered what Panazur and ilk can do to the gut flora of the animal? I am not aware of any research into this with geckos specifically, but I bet that healthy gut flora goes a long way toward a healthy digestive system (the keystone of health). Remember that nutrition equals ingestion plus assimilation. Too often we focus on ingestion only. So at least I would suggest some pro-biotics or meadow sweepings after dosing. Of course, with meadow sweepings, you can reintroduce parasites.

Just throwing this out there to make you think.

One more thing....some theories credit the parasite-host interactions and competitions as one of the driving forces of evolution.

[jadrig]

Well, I have a degree in Zoology, took courses in parasitology,and mainly concentrated on invertebrates/aquatic insects...

I will be honest, I did not learn a lot of relevant stuff in these classes, but it really inspires you to look deeper into the subject matter on your own time and incorporate this into your hobby.

Man, there are a lot more chemical changes that happen/ are triggered by these parasites then we could ever find out...

Its called Secondary Phenotypes...

These chemical changes within the host animal cause it to change physically or react differently than normal. In most cases, these secondary phenotypes cause the host to put itself in a position to exponentially increase its chances of passing on the parasite to the next stage in the life cycle (evident in the case with the frogs that have Extra Limbs).

But, as most everyone has stated...Uroplatus, as just about all reptiles, stand a better chance in captivity then in the wild. This, ofcourse, only if they are kept in the proper conditions.

As someone mentioned above, people who keep Uroplatus tend to OVER DO it.

It is good that they care...I notice the same type of over reactions with chameleon keepers as well.

[the-1]

I fully agree that there is absolutely no "right answer" in this situation. I do appreciate all of the thoughtful responses and I do take everything I read into consideration, because if there is anything I've learned in this hobby (obsession) it's that even the most absurd sounding statements might yield some truth or get one thinking in a way they never had. So yes, I'm taking everything written into consideration, and I hope everyone does the same.

I understand people have had success both ways (medicating or not) with keeping and breeding these things. I actually just spoke to the individual formerly in charge of the Uroplatus collection at the Henry Doorly Zoo in Omaha, NE and they medicate all of their animals upon arrival (standard zoo protocol) and yet continue to breed the hell out of them... And I think that many are still striving to figure out what the 'proper conditions' for these animals actually are. Madagascar is a whole other world away, and many have only had the opportunity to experience it through National Geographic, the T.V. or the Internet. I can say from first-hand experience none of these sources hold a candle to what it's actually like there...


As I said before, I hope this thread has been a worthwhile read to those that have taken the time to do so. If anyone does get fecals done on their Uroplatus, whether you decide to treat them or not, I would still like to know what you find.

--nick

Originally Posted by RFB2

I do not think you come off as "arrogant" at all. I am enjoying this discussion. I think this is one however, that leaves us with no right or wrong answer with out having first hand experience of each others past situations. I understand all of your points. I feel that though with this one you should definitely give our suggestion some serious thought before you decide to make your purchase.

If you are going to med you animals regardless, I think it would be wise to give your geckos time to adjust to there new environment before the added stress on their systems.
If you read through the many pages on this forum and you were to sort out the “my gecko died” threads you will see some similarities that can lead you to the causes of death.
I think more people get nervous with this genus and for lack of better words “overdue it” which cause stress on the gecko which inevitably leads to the geckos death.

I have had success with several species of Uroplatus. I am currently working with Ebenuai and Phantasticus, because it is all that I have space for at the moment. I have had several hatchlings this year and hopefully many more to come.

All that I ask for you to do is recognize that the people giving you advice all have, if not breeding success with the genus, at least have been successfully keeping long term captives and are not shooting blindly.

Regards,
Rob

[luevelvet]

Man, I go bowling one night and now I have all of this to catch up on! :P

This is exactly the types of discussions we should be having and I'm glad it's finally happening.

The subject of whether to administer meds or not is one that will get more and more heated as we learn more about the physiology of these animals. When I first entered the world of Chameleons in '93-'94, I always had panacur, batryl and flagyl on hand just in case. It worked greated for some species and not so much in others.

Let's not forget that what differentiates a species from another in a genus isn't always morphilogical variation. There are physiological differences between genus and even species. Chameleons of the Trioceros genus tend to not process supplementation as well as higher metabolized warmer climate species, thus the addition of calcium/multi-vitamins is to be handled with greater care than with species from, say, the Furcifer genus (for example).

This is an important fact of life that we must consider when administering medications to a variety of herps. What works for one may not work for the other.

With that being said, it isn't uncommon to treat Uroplatus, however, it truly depends on your ability to detect slight variations in their behavior and over all "health". Some folks don't treat their animal in hopes they can get viable eggs from WC females prior to cycling them again for another round of breeding.

We're currently working with six Phantasticus and three Lineatus. I know for sure the Lineatus are fresh WC's and haven't been medicated yet.

I just received my slides and covers so I will be checking a few samples this weekend to see what I find. I like to know what I'm working with before I administer any meds, but as I mentioned before, it's all in how the animal looks and acts. Weak animals I usually don't medicate due to the fact that the body has to process the meds and process the removal of the parasites themselves which adds even more stress.

It really seems like the Malagasy species are more susceptible to stress deaths than many any herps. I'm downplaying the effects of stress on other herps, but in my experience the Malagasy species seem a bit more fragile, especially when it comes to stress.

Luis

[RFB2]

Well put Luis

[jadrig]

yeah, I have a new compound stereo microscope...I dabble with it every now and then, if I get a fresh stool sample...

Thankfully, my two Mellers are captive born. I heard they have real weak/small kidneys. If I were dealing with WC chams, other than Mellers, I would most likely be medicating them...

[viktor]

Originally Posted by luevelvet

It really seems like the Malagasy species are more susceptible to stress deaths than many any herps. I'm downplaying the effects of stress on other herps, but in my experience the Malagasy species seem a bit more fragile, especially when it comes to stress.

Luis

Well, not all Malagasy species, just Uroplatus. I think species that rely on camouflage might get stressed more easily than species that rely on flight or a defense mechanism. It's like, uh oh, I was spotted, I got nothing left.