[luevelvet]

Well, if you count in the numerous chameleon species that are from there and how they handle stress, I don't think it's just Uroplatus. Geography does produce trans-species/genus trends.

I ran a fecal on one sample from our Lineatus. So far nothing. I was surprised to see how clean it looked actually. They are WC although look very healthy and are as active as I've seen others to be. It's difficult to isolate which one the sample came from so I'll be collecting samples from areas just under where I know each one prefers to rest during the day.

I'll report back anything I find.

Thanks,

Luis

[viktor]

Well, I think that actually proves my point further. Chameleons, just like uroplatus, are slow-moving species that rely primarily on camouflage to avoid predators.

[luevelvet]

hehe,
I never disputed that, just the fact that stress related issues don't only affect Uroplatus. :P

Now back to the topic at hand!

Luis

[Protean]

treating with panacur and flagyl or albon, any of the meds does several things to you animals. mainly kill off good gut flora and fauna. secondly, kills the kidneys and liver.

After having close to 900 or so uroplatus come through my place (two year hiatus now) I've never treated a single one. if they are stressed the parasite will flourish - DONT FEED THEM. if you feed them, the parasite will reproduce and the animal with crash faster. Wait 3-4 days before feeding, just hydrate them as they will flush out the coccidia and possible developing parasites. Everyone I know that has treated uroplatus has not done the best with them.

next, don't use sterile enclosures. no animal does well in a sterile environment except a desert species - they live with shit conditions so why wouldn't they do well when given better than nothing? Uroplatus are camoflage specialists, they need a naturally planted enclosure with healthy soil microfauna. And properly gutloaded prey, gut load like that from the former cricketfood.com and from when leah and jason descamps used to make gutload (theirs is still the best, bummer they stopped making it).

We do not know what role parasites play in the development of most animals. We also do not know the proper way to treat for A without killing b,c, d and e. In my mind, and experience, if d,c,d, and e die to treat a... we have a problem. As with uroplatus, we have a problem there.

STOP TREATING WHEN THE LITTLE IT HELPS KILLS THE HELPERS.

-back to my glass box.
jason.p

[crestedtimm]

For what little I know, I have to agree with Jason on all of his points.

I will say that I have 1 ebenaui and 1 phantasticus that I treated proactively when I received them, with both albon and panacur, once per day for a week, and they are still alive for going on two years now in February.

I understand that every factor in the world could have be the cause of these two animals thriving, and am not arguing FOR the treatment of newly aquired Uroplatus any more than arguing against it.

Further, I think that pointing out the mass of animals that you have dealt with lends credibility to your statements, and gives those who are new to the genus a much needed basis for acclimating WC leaf-tails in a world where everyone has an opinion based on what could have been fluke experiences.

Thank you for posting.

Timm

[the-1]

Originally Posted by Protean

treating with panacur and flagyl or albon, any of the meds does several things to you animals. mainly kill off good gut flora and fauna. secondly, kills the kidneys and liver.

After having close to 900 or so uroplatus come through my place (two year hiatus now) I've never treated a single one. if they are stressed the parasite will flourish - DONT FEED THEM. if you feed them, the parasite will reproduce and the animal with crash faster. Wait 3-4 days before feeding, just hydrate them as they will flush out the coccidia and possible developing parasites. Everyone I know that has treated uroplatus has not done the best with them.

Interesting point of view. I've somewhat decided to let this argument go as there is no definitive answer as to what is ultimately right, but I think I can spur some more constructive thought on the subject....

I will personally treat my animals until proven it does more harm than good. I have a problem introducing an animal known to be infected into an enclosure that has animals I know are not (for breeding purposes or whatever). Furthermore, I don't desire to let diseases/viruses/parasites from halfway around the world thrive in my artificially created environments. Although I do practice extreme hygiene between and among my animals of the same and of different species, things can be transmitted very easily. I don't need an unknown pathogen running through my knob tail colony that originated from my Uroplatus colony. I do recognize that most parasites are host specific, but the chance is still there and one that I'm not willing to take. I also know how well stressed animals can pass parasites/viruses/you name it from one individual to another. I've seen it numerous times in emerald tree boas and chondros.


It would be interesting to know how many of the 900 animals you had passed through your facility lived any significant length of time and/or what they were carrying. I think the same question needs to be answered but from the other perspective- what the result is of someone having 900 animals pass through their facility having treated every one of them.

--nick

[Protean]

and you sir may be a reason why forums bother me. None of the points I made actually rang a bell. Treat them then. But don't treat your animal if you haven't let it actually settle into something that is not a shipping container. Treating any animal that is highly stressed will actually kill it.

stop thinking the argument is just at treating your animals for parasites, it actually is a statement that your animals need to acclimate before you do anything to them.

Facility = home. I imported my animals directly when the opportunity came up because i love the genus that much. I rarely lost any uroplatus I had.

[the-1]

I'm sorry my post bothered you. I was simply acknowledging your point of view and then stating mine. I’m not trying to turn this into a pissing match. I do let all my WC animals acclimate for about a month before ever treating them. It would be useless to treat something that is on the verge of death because you're right, it will kill it. I know my meds, I know the possible side effects, and I know the condition my animals need to be in before ever coming in contact with meds.

If forums bother you I apologize as well. The traditional way of thinking regarding Uroplatus care has a very one sided argument. Anyone that ever offers the counter usually gets shunned or looked down upon for their ideas. Typical stereotypes include: High humidity, low temperatures, don't medicate, etc. I don't know where all of these stereotypes originated but I think along the way those keepers that dared to venture outside the traditional way of thinking have been successful as well. Regarding temps for instance, when I was in Madagascar, I found numerous fimbriatus sitting on bamboo stalks in the middle of the day. Although they were on the shaded side of the plant (most often) ambient temperatures were easily in the mid to upper 90s, and they weren't falling over dead.

I haven't kept a lot of Uroplatus, I don't pretend to be an expert; I'm only trying to provoke thought. The way things have always been done are not always the right ways. 30 years ago every ball python that came into the country was mean as hell, would never feed, and people said they were only useful as cobra food. They sat in an aquarium for a year until they died. Low and behold someone ventured outside the traditional ways of keeping them and now they are the most popular pet snake in captivity.

I've only expressed what works for me, my reasons for doing what I do, and what I plan to continue doing to contribue knowledge for the species, and I welcome other peoples' experiences as well.

[Protean]

its not a pissing match. no one ever listens to me when i give advice but then again I've bred 9 of the recognized species... so i must have been doing something right. you don't need to explain to me what traditional thinking on them is, I'm very aware of it.

[DDReptiles]

Can't believe I missed this thread, just when I almost gave up on this forum in terms of a good read.

I just had fecals run on my collection the other day (I do random samples throughout the year). Of those fecals I had a number of Uroplatus samples done.

The results, all my CB Uroplatus were clean! I have 2 trios of LTC (from the same source) Uroplatus lineatus, both had a few pinworm eggs in them. However I don't really consider this much of an issue as they don't seem to be hurting anything, I would consider treating themif more eggs (pinworm eggs that is) were found.

I also had a fecal run on a recently imported male pietschmanni. I have been quarantining it for over a month now and it seems to be doing well, and putting on weight. However its fecal came back positive for coccidia. So now I am debating within my head on whether or not I should treat it before moving it to my permanent collection. As I have all my Uroplatus in screen enclosures so I would imagine it would be fairly easy for the parasite to spread throughout the room. As of now I am thinking I will continue to keep him in quarantine for another few weeks and then treat him.

Regarding the temperature, I think most Uroplatus can handle higher temps for short periods of time. I keep my pairs of fimbriatus in 2x2x4 foot screen tanks with a small hotspot in the upper corner, however I never see my fimbriatus under it. They just seem to cling to the side and not move until night. I keep my lineatus in a similar type setup.

Thanks Derek