[the-1]

I have a few lingering questions regarding parasites and death within uroplatus geckos...

Anyone who has had fecal work done on your uroplatus, what did the vet find?
Did you decide to treat it, if so with what?
How many people have had uroplatus die due to high temps...did you get a necropsy to validate?

Any additional info about necropsies, deaths, fecals, etc. would be appreciated. I will explain why I'm curious about such things after I get some responses.

Thanks
--nick

[luevelvet]

My microscope should arrive in the mail sometime early this week. I will be testing multiple samples from our Lineatus and Phantasticus mid to late next week and should have some info by next weekend. There are a few common parasites and diseases that come from Malagasy herps (any WC herp really) including:

*Coccidia
*Subcutaneous and Intestinal. i.e.: Roundworms, Pinworms

I have yet to hear of any cases involving subcutaneous worms in Uroplatus, but the possibility isn't 100% ruled out. It would seem that the larger species of Uroplatus could survive with the worms, however, I would guess the smaller species wouldn't be suitable hosts.

Luis

[the-1]

I’ve been contemplating the idea of Uroplatus for years now and I recently had the opportunity to acquire a decent sized group of sikorae at a fair price. Up until this point I had no experience with Uroplatus though I had been building my knowledge base for a few years. Anyway, I’ve had my animals for approximately three weeks and have some observations I would like to share.

I set up my enclosures as naturally as possible. The dimensions are 20x23x22. Enclosures were composed of peat moss substrate, large golden pathos, numerous branches (smooth and course) of varying sizes, as well as some plastic plants here and there to fill any spaces. Animals are misted between 7 and 9 am (U.S. CST) and 9 and 12 pm. They have been on a diet of 3-4 lateralis or dubia roaches every other day or every third day (as their activity suggests) and the insects are dusted once per week with RepCal calcium and mineral supplements. Nighttime temperatures drop into the mid to low 60s whereas day temperatures vary from 72-80 degrees.

2.4 sikorae arrived via UPS overnight from Florida to Wisconsin. Upon arrival, all animals were in great condition with the exception of one male that acted a bit slower than the others. All were set up in individual enclosures with the specs given above. I now know that the group was/is comprised of 2.3 sikorae sameiti and .1 sikorae sikorae.

I debated treating/quarantining the animals because, as the literature suggests, they are extremely stress prone. Having most of my experience with chondros and emerald tree boas, I understand the importance of stress free environments with the contrary leading to disease outbreaks that could have otherwise been averted given proper husbandry conditions. That being said, I opted with the least stress environment as an initial set-up rather than putting them through the rigorous cycle of quarantine, treatments, etc.

Within the first week the odd male began showing signs of dehydration. I used the shower treatment (hydration chamber) for three days before he perished. All of the other animals seemed healthy as they were eating and drinking well. All had full, thick tails so the shower treatment was rendered unnecessary for those not showing preliminary symptoms of dehydration. The day the initial male perished, a female also died due to unknown causes. I performed an amateur necropsy to look for any blockages within the animals but found nothing. They had been in my care for 10 days, both were sameiti.

3 days prior to the first two dying, I collected fecals from all 6 geckos in the group to have parasitic analysis run. Results came back 4 days after the death of the first two (vet troubles) showing “numerous Eimeria seen” with nothing else to report.

2 days ago the remaining male showed crash symptoms, major tail curling, tail dropped, loose shed, etc. He was relieved yesterday.

This sums up where I am now- here is the rundown of what I’m thinking.

The fecals showed an infestation of coccidia. Of all the things that an animal could get this was one of the two I really didn’t want to deal with (the other being crypto).

Brief coccidia rundown for those who are not familiar with this little nasty…

Infections can remain at subclinical levels until reduced resistance (suppressed immune system) caused primarily by stress factors (shipping, crowding, weather or even changes of food) allow coccidia populations within the host to erupt. After the initial suppression, millions of coccidia infect the intestines, causing hemorrhagic diarrhea, loss of weight, reduced performance and vigor, and often death. They basically remove the intestinal lining until the animal is unable to process food. As a result, the immune systems of infected animals can also be weakened making them more susceptible to toxins and secondary infections.

The biggest problem is that by the time clinical signs are observed, much of the damage has already occurred (at this point I haven’t seen any symptoms in my remaining geckos). Though I have decided to treat them anyway, which I started today (following Klingenberg’s protocol).

Some things have been bothering me.

1) Many Uroplatus keepers stand very strongly behind the idea that high temperatures kill these geckos.

a. Although this may be true to an extent, I question the validity. When I was in Madagascar, I found fimbriatus and henkeli and ebenaui where temperatures exceeded 90 degrees in the day. Although, these animals were often found in the shade, the humidity made it hot even in the shaded areas. Relief came at night, when the temps dropped significantly. I wonder how prevalent coccidia actually are in Uroplatus populations as a whole (hence my previous post). We often attribute the death of an animal to improper husbandry issues, though I wonder if the real culprit is an underlying parasite that has been able to take hold due to shipping stress, improper husbandry (temperatures included), or any of the other stressors brought about from being taken halfway around the world.

2) Coccidia are known to erupt the warmer temperatures get as they are environmental opportunists. Although I do believe these geckos need to be kept cooler than the typical gecko, I wonder how much of a role the protozoan actually plays in the death of the animal (hence my request for necropy results).

3) I have a curiosity about the different subspecies and possible husbandry differences for each. Glaw and Vences report that sameiti frequent mid to upper elevation habitats (which are typically cooler; though this depends on latitude as well) as opposed to sikorae sikorae which frequent lower elevation habitats. My sikorae sikorae is the only gecko I have that has put on weight since acquisition (a whopping 6g) all the others remained stable. I wonder if these geckos are more tolerant of changes in the environment and have adapted with the coccidia accordingly. Though it is important to mention that even though there are currently 2 subspecies of sikorae in the literature, Chris Raxworthy at the AMNH is currently describing at least 6 additional species/subspecies (of Uroplatus, what type I am unsure, they may not even be related to sikorae, though the point is the same) which may be found in entirely different habitats. Madagascar is a unique place; the evolution of the vast assemblages now found there has gone on in isolation within microhabitats for the past 80 million years. The fine tuning of nature and the co-evolution of species cannot go unnoticed.

I don’t wish to devalue any of the information presented by keepers with years of experience gained over their years of dedication to these animals. I’m simply presenting an observation I’ve made in the short time I’ve spent in the field and in captivity with these animals.

Any thoughts are much appreciated and welcomed.

--Nick

[boogie]

the-1 how do you plan to treat your remaneing uros and what kind of meds are you usieng?

[the-1]

Originally Posted by boogie

the-1 how do you plan to treat your remaneing uros and what kind of meds are you usieng?

Any of the sulfa drugs can be used to treat coccidia. Sulfadimethoxine is the most common (albon is the common name). Klingenberg recommends a dosage of 50mg/kg for 3 days off 3 days then on again 3 days. I'm currently using sulfamethazine as it was the only thing I can find in suspended form without a 'wellness' exam from the vet (unknowledgeable vet...long story). The problem with coccidia is that there is no sure fire treatment. Excellent husbandry practices are a must as the protozoan has the ability to reinfest itself without a host.

In addition, the problem with administering sulfa drugs to Uroplatus is that they are prone to dehydration. It isn't recommended to treat dehydrated animals with sulfa drugs. Another reason why I decided to hold off on treatment until they had become relatively established in my care.

--nick

[luevelvet]

Nick,

Regarding the day time temps, did you happen to grab any stats of temps in the habitats they are active in. IE, during day it may have been 90 (cooler in shade of course) but does anyone have stats on what the temps were when they were active?

I'm not questioning the info in your post, quite the opposite. My gut tells me that they can tolerate higher temps than what has been previously suggested, just not for prolonged periods of time.

I'm also wondering if the same goes for humidity. One of our males was able to sneak out of it's enclosure and went missing for two days in our herp room. The average RH is roughly 45-50 and there was no water readily available to him. I did find him the second night we noticed him missing and to be quite honest he appeared in better shape and attitude than some of the ones in the enclosure!

Now, I know the next question, "What's am I doing wrong with the enclosure?". Well, according to the caresheets and the good book, nothing. RH is 75-100 at all times. Water dish is always full of clean water and food is offered nightly. The cage is sprayed once an evening, about an hour or two after lights out, and the average temp never really goes above 75.5. The animals don't look unhealthy per se, but the one male that had a few days on his own in the dryer room hanging out in the closet seems much more robust and active.

I'm contemplating separating them into individual enclosures and carefully adjust their levels to see where they thrive best. I wonder if the location of their collection plays a part in their preferences. In the chameleon world, it has been documented that individuals of Trioceros Melleri have been known to prefer a wider variety of temperatures than other individuals of a different locale. This has held true in their offspring as well. My particular individual prefers temperatures in the high 70's up to 82 while common documentation suggests they all prefer mid to high 70's with 80 being a little on the high side. Others that obtained siblings from the same clutch were also noticing the preferences for higher temps with their individuals.

Of course I'm not suggesting we all change our ways based on such preliminary experiences, however, with the little we know about the differentials in the their inhabited ranges, and even less about where they were collected, I wonder if these differentials play a part in their natural cycles.

Thoughts?

Luis

[the-1]

Luis,

Regarding the temps... As I said before, in the day it was hot. Where we were finding fimbriatus, daytime temps were easily in the upper 80s. These animals weren't necessarily found deep within the rainforest either (Nosy Mangabe, Masoala Nat. Park). Especially on Nosy Mangabe, where they would have been buffered against the heat, they were found along forest trails with open canopy and along the beach (though they were also found within the forest). At night temps were comfortable, typically ranging in the 70s. I agree with you 100% on the idea that it might be more beneficial to provide a wide range of temperatures for them allowing them to determine what suits them best (though this still doesn't solve the parasite problem).

Interesting note: when I was in the Montagne d'Ambre region I found ebenuai at night where it was in the 60s. In the same locations where I found them at night it was in the 90s during the day. I looked on the same bushes were they were found at night and they were nowhere to be found... Makes me wonder where they go in the daytime to escape the heat.

I was also there in May, which is the beginning of the Malagasy winter...

Just a personal belief from my limited observations: I think it is more important to provide a temperature drop at night than to be concerned with the daytime highs- as long as they aren't too excessive and the animals are healthy...

--Nick

[viktor]

Very cool discussion.

I might not have as much experience as other people on this board, but from what I have learned, the main culprit always seems stress. I don't think parasites per se cause the problem. Rather it seems that when the animal gets stressed, the resources ordinarily used for immunity (or for anabolic processes) get diverted into the more immediate requirements of flight-or-flight. This causes any pre-existing problems or weaknesses, which could be parasites, a weak organ system, depleted gut flora, or nutritional deficiencies to overtake the animal. Imagine if this flight-or-flight response sustains for days or weeks, because the animal does not feel safe.

Also, remember that a parasite does not benefit from the animal dying. Most parasites have evolved to make sure the host does not die, so that the parasite can thrive and reproduce. I am not saying parasites aren't a significant problem, I just don't think of them as the root cause of an animal's demise as often as others assume. It may be convenient to do so, if you see some parasites turn up in a fecal, to say "yeah, that's what did it, just look at those disgusting little bastards." Rather, we should analyze why the animal's resources were overwhelmed.

[luevelvet]

I agree. It's a common misconception in much of the reptile world. Unfortunately it's difficult for some to admit that not providing the best possible environment, treatment and acclimation, especially for newly acquired WC animals, was the cause of their animals demise.

Stress affects all animals differently and it certainly does seem like it takes it's toll on WC malagasy species.

Luis

[allen]

Originally Posted by the-1

Luis,
Interesting note: when I was in the Montagne d'Ambre region I found ebenuai at night where it was in the 60s. In the same locations where I found them at night it was in the 90s during the day. I looked on the same bushes were they were found at night and they were nowhere to be found... Makes me wonder where they go in the daytime to escape the heat.

I was also there in May, which is the beginning of the Malagasy winter...
--Nick

Same here, only in september when it was 15-16°C night and around 24°C day. But like you said, they have such an enviroment to crawl around so it is possible that they find a 18-24°C dayspot to rest at.


Maybe it would be indeed better to provide a relative large cage with some heat at the top and cool at the bottom. Good airflow due to screen and/or computerfans at the top. We will see and try to realize....