[Scott F]

Hey all, I need help from some of the experienced people out there........

I am having a problem with some of my phants.

Two weeks ago I lost one of my females (almost 2 years old), and may lose another very shortly. I need to correct, what I believe is a supplementation issue. I think it has something to do with calcium/D3....not sure if it is underdosing or overdosing, and believe it is directly related to the current product I am using.

Doesn't look like MBD to me, but I am noticing some weird symptoms that may be related. No bone deformities,swelling, or twitching...but they seem not to be able to move there arms and legs quite right. About 3-4 days after I noted they were perching a little weird..I saw each one on the terrarium floor, as they saw me approach(on seperate occasions from each other) they tried to quickly grab for a twig and head upwards....I noticed there limbs kind of flailed around a little like they were having problems with motor coordination. After a second, each puled itself upward to assume a more normal pearching behavior. When they tried to anchor themselves to the twig I also noticed that they repeatedly, for only a couple of seconds, moved their back feet a little oddly, to steady themselves( not really twitching, but moving the feet in place, seemingly having problems steadying themselves.
At this point they are not eating as they usually do, this may also be do to the fact that they were about to drop eggs full term. Both females were outwardly healthy up until now. The younger CBB female has laid 4 good eggs, and is ready to drop two more any day now, though I fear she will pass before. The other female was a large CBB girl, fully mature with large chalk sacs. I have been using Repashy Calcium Plus almost exclusively. The package reccomends every feeding. Usually I dust all feeders and feed about 3 medium sized crickets per animal every other day. I gut load with repashy cricket feed. Recently I also started to add Repashy Super Pig into the cricket gutload. Crickets are offered most regularly orange slices,and shredded carrot for moisture. One female was in a tank with a single Zoomed 5.0 linear tube with a pearching site mimimum 6 inches away from the tube,and through a screen top. Also not the tank is 24 inches high and has many hiding spots where the animal may avoid the 5.0, I feel it is a weak dose of UVB at very best. She only seems to sporadically bask under it when she is noticeable gravid, and every now and again when she is not. The other smaller/younger female was housed with no UVB. The smaller female who is still alive is less than a year old and has laid 4 good eggs, I did not intend for her to breed this season, she never really built up chalk sacs. The large female laid two well calcified duds about a month and a half ago. After which she copulated with a male numerous times and was ready to lay , most likely, viable eggs.
When they perch during the day the seem to hold most of there weight up hanging by their front legs (kind looks like pullups)...cant describe but definately not there normal positions. I do not see any sign of twitching,or shaking whatsoever at rest. When they do move at night, it looks akward and slightly out of place. The large female died about four days after observing these symptoms...by my estimate the other girl probably will go in about 2 or three more days.
Now to fix the problem as I have a good number of phants.
I swithched to the Repashy products about two years ago, and until now everything seemed ok. I thought they would be better as they have a more moderate level of just about everything. In the past I used Repcal and Herptivite...but they seem to have really high amounts of D3, an not as well balanced. Could I be over supplimenting??? Under supplimenting??...and with what? Maybe I shoud switch products and/or dosing routine.

This is not to be a debate about Repashy products....as I think they are very good products for certain reptiles..but maybe U. phantasticus is not one of those species.

I am trying to schedule a phone consultation with my vet.

So what do you guys think??? I am open to suggestions.

Sorry about the poor spelling and paragraph structure, i am in ah hurry right now


Later.........

[Saurian]

IM trying to figure this stuff out too. Let me know if u dont mind if you find out anything beside on this forum. Thanks.

[Scott F]

I took the female out of tank a little whle ago and set her on the floor to see how she moved...seems her legs are week and she is kind of dragging...the more I read maybe this is MBD. Tomorrow I might try and dose her with calcium gluconate, but how much for such a small animal and in what interval. Maybe one drop on her snout? I fear I will lose her if I do not try something tomorrow. Anybody have dosing recommendations? Hopefully I can get a hold of my vet.

[Saurian]

Try the snout. It will lick it off. I mixed some calcium with babyfood tonight for one of mine that I am having problems with and he licked it off. Also if it opens its mouth in a threat display try taking the chance to putting the calcium in its mouth then. Thats what I did too. I believe a lot of people deworm their uroplatus by using the "snout method". Good luck.

[luevelvet]

Scott,

This has happened to me on more than one occasion and to be honest, I couldn't figure it out either. One even seemed to go lame in many respects, yet was able to still crawl around the bottom and catch food. He struggled to make it up into the branches, but managed a way to do so every morning. He stayed that way for a few months actually, despite many attempts to add or subtract supplements and such. It really seemed like his time to go.

The last male passed away just a few weeks ago with no indication as to why. I had him for about a year and apparently was a LTC prior to acquiring him. He went almost the same way, but it was more sudden. One evening he was fine, jumping around and hunting, the next he was nearly lame and passed the following evening.

A few things that came to mind were age and supplementation. All of my animals were larger, seemingly older specimens. All seemed "older" when they passed, meaning the younger ones of the group I acquired last year lasted the longest. I know the estimated life span in 3-5 years, but how accurate is that? I'm in no way questioning the validity of this number, rather, has it held true for many breeders? Or do they start to putter out after year 2? I know it doesn't address your younger female but it what I kept attributing the situation to since it seemed to make sense at the time.

Now the supplementation is something I've toyed with a bit but only when things seemed off. I normally provide Calcium w/D3 every other night and occasionally I will throw in an evening of Herptivite. I do skip feeding once or twice a week but they all sort of complain if I stick with an every other night sort of schedule. :P

Outside of that, I really don't know what else it could be. Perhaps it's something communicable? A sensitivity to a certain parasite or bacteria? Have you done recent fecals? I know you're more than likely to find it clean but it's worth a try. Especially a fecal smear.

Good luck and keep us posted!

Luis

[jadrig]

If this problem is only happening to cycling females...that should answer your question right there...
are the feeders getting too much protein? Could it be gout? I know its common with certain chameleons...

I have had a WC pair for almost/over 4 years now and the female does cycle...I dont think that the female is 'his type' if you know what I mean...
They have bonded, every three or four nights, they seem to 'sleep together' during the day time. I never witnessed him making an attempt to mate.
I have had some come and go for varying reasons, but these two have stuck around.
Repashy might have too much of a certain vitamin for this species...I m not familiar with Repashy products though...
I remember one phantasticus breeder having a similar problem with the back legs going lame/partially paralyzed while the animal was still trying to live. I am not sure if he had this problem with his WCs but I know he had the problem with some CB specimens.
It is obviously a problem isolated to this species/group having to do with their diet most likely...
What is the protein content of the food/gutload you use for your feeders...
I heard catfood/dogfood for crickets causes gout with the mellers chameleons...

[MonteQ's]

Sounds like a calcium crash to me. I've had similar circumstances a couple of times, mostly with young females. The fact that you say they aren't twitchy confuses me a little. The few times I've seen what you're describing, they seemed just generally uncoordinated and jumpy. Running during misting...scrambling or falling and having trouble climbing etc. I just gave them a couple drops of liquid calcium every couple days and added a couple extra well dusted feedings and they pulled through. Eggs usually followed.

I switched supplements last spring and it sort of threw everything out of whack. Seems like they can be pretty sensitive when the diet changes. I wish I could help more, but most of the complexities of the diet are a bit above my head...

[aquapimp]

Scott and others,

I am having a similar situation with an F2 female phantasticus. Although not as severe, the symptoms seem similar.

At 11 months, the female began cycling. She had modest endo-lymphatic calcium sacs before egg deposition. On her second clutch, the sacs were not evident, (despite supplementation) and she seemed to be having difficulties passing the eggs. At this time a rear leg "locked up" and became basically useless to her.

I have been dabbing a slurry of peach baby food, water, and calcium on her snout for two weeks now, and she is definitely rebounding, with leg use resuming.

I am using a 5.0 and a 2.0 florescent over the enclosures. There is dense plant growth, with plenty of shaded retreats.

Supplements are a 1:1 blend of both indoor and outdoor Minerall, dusting 4-5 times weekly. Herptivite once a week. Feeders are VERY well fed. Filtered water is used as well.

[jadrig]

Yeah, the babyfood/H2O/Calcium definitely works wonders...the key is to be patient...

[tucker]

i feed my geckos every other night unless theres still a decent amount left over. i dust with calcium once or twice a week i use 5.0 uvb bulb. and ive never had any issues.