[NigelMoses]

Originally Posted by Nocturnal80

Sorry uroplatus99, just asking people for their opinion. Didnt know I needed ur permision first. I must be doing something right because i have babies and eggs. Asking a question doesnt mean ur ignorant. Assuming YOU know everything is. Thanks for your two cents but a cpl of pennies wont get u anywhere now and days. Aim for franklins. Thanks

Silas was simply giving you advice, there is no reason to be an A$$Hole and attack him for doing that. If you didn't want opinions then keep to yourself. This is what drives me crazy about this forum. We are more than willing to give advice and share what we have observed to anyone who is willing to listen. Please don't ask our opinions if your mind has already been made up. Why did you even ask if this would be alright if you had already decided you weren't going to listen to what we were going to tell you, IT DRIVES ME CRAZY!!!! It is nothing more than a waste of time, so stop wasting mine. Lastly, you mentioned a few posts ago you haven't had good luck and you have only gotten slugs. You also mentioned one female seemed uninterested but then turn around in this post and tell us you have babies and eggs.

[Elizabeth Freer]

Please keep posts on this thread "civil". Most posters have been doing a good job! No one benefits from name-calling. If that's how someone feels, there are positive ways to state that which do not dilute your opinion.

I am not even suggesting that strong feelings are NOT OK. It is just important for all of us to state our opinions in a way which encourages communication and not to start some name-calling war.

[miguel camacho!]

As I sometimes do, I'll play the devil's advocate here. It's true, there is potential for adding stress to the geckos, but if we're talking about the "natural" way of things, stress due to competition between males, whether for territory, females, or any other resource is natural. Captive keeping is not.

The captive keeping and propagation of these species is not a science, there are still many out there who experiment. I respect and commend the work put forth by the community as a whole, but taking it personal when one's opinions are not generally accepted is not grounds for the name calling that has become more and more common. There seems to be a deeper and deeper divide among hobbyists as time goes and it's my opinion that this is destructive to the hobby, personal reputations and the potential to gain/share valuable information with one another.

Once again, expressing your opinion is one thing, but getting in the business of getting defensive of it on either side does no one any good...more so it does harm.

That said...

Maintenance of bloodlines is indeed an interesting and helpful cause, seeing as it's an idea that has been passed around for quite some time now regarding Uroplatus. I know Silas, Luis, and probably others have dedicated time and effort into developing a way in which Uroplatus hobbyists can unite and cooperate in monitoring of captive breeding efforts.

The idea of bloodline maintenance was brought up as a response, not a question from the thread author. While I do condone record-keeping for those interested in being part of a larger effort to track these bloodlines, it was never brought up as a concern by the author of this thread, and each keeper's own goals, while subject to scrutiny, may differ from one person to the next. We must respect each person's goals with their own captive collection and keep in mind that not everyone has the intent to contribute to a bloodline maintenance effort.

It is each individual keeper's personal prerogative whether to keep the animals in groups or not. I hope that statement does not take away from any of the effort or dedication some of you have made in your personal or cooperative collections.

However, Nocturnal80 asked about customizing an enclosure to accommodate for a larger-than-average group of geckos. The overwhelming response countered my argument that it is fine as long as you keep close observation of your animals after making this custom enclosure to monitor each individual's health and well being. I'm fine with that. I'm going to stick to my guns with the cautious recommendation to keep an eye out for signs of aggression, although I didn't explicitly mention it before - I recommend you have the accommodations prepared in the case of incompatibility.

But back to the bloodline issue. I will admit I am not an expert on setting and tracking bloodlines, I have never participated in the sale of captive bred Uroplatus offspring other than to a single individual (who twisted my arm into doing so, so-to-speak). However, can bloodlines not be responsibly tracked without determination of parentage? Is it any different to have undetermined male parentage than it is to be uncertain of the female that deposited the eggs in an enclosure with more than a single pair? Furthermore, I know one of the resounding issues with importation of Uroplatus has been the issue of lack of locality information. I know in the current age of social networking many people have contact with the same individuals responsible for the operations that collect these animals and may be able to obtain some sort of information regarding the origins of their wild caught specimens. However, there appears to be little-to-no discussion regarding the issue. Once again I'll disclaim the fact that I know little to nothing about bloodline maintenance, but when speaking of "pure bloodlines", is origin of the wild caught breeders not of interest?

And on a side-note, I encourage those who are willing, capable, and prepared to experiment with keeping. I, for one, had much greater success breeding individuals (U. phantasticus in this case) in groups with multiple males as opposed to single males. In the several years I did so, I never once had a male perish from any of these groups. I did make note of aggression between males and separated males accordingly. Aggression will become apparent visibly when animals are seen battling or in the manifestation of bite wounds that may appear anywhere on the body from the head to the body, limbs, and/or tail.

I personally believe that the addition of the second aquarium as described by Nocturnal80 will be of benefit to the group, as it adds needed space for height and structure. If the substrate level in the original enclosure remains the same, you'll actually be more than doubling the usable space of the enclosure as a whole by adding the second aquarium. You'll want to be careful in removal of the bottom glass, but as long as you do so cleanly and remove all broken glass, the desired effect should be attainable.

At the same time, converting two 55 gallon enclosures to vertical enclosures can alleviate the floor space issue while still allowing for maintenance of two separate groups. If breeding results do not improve, perhaps rotation of certain individuals will assist in obtaining the desired results.

Best wishes, and whatever your choice, I hope that you choose to share the results of the cage-building and animals settling in.

[NigelMoses]

Originally Posted by Elizabeth Freer

Please keep posts on this thread "civil". Most posters have been doing a good job! No one benefits from name-calling. If that's how someone feels, there are positive ways to state that which do not dilute your opinion.

I am not even suggesting that strong feelings are NOT OK. It is just important for all of us to state our opinions in a way which encourages communication and not to start some name-calling war.

I 100% agree but it is absolutely ridiculous when the founder of the thread begins attacking someone for sharing their opinion on the matter, when their opinion was asked. Nocturnal is making statements and then making statements that completely contradict what he first said. If he was up front and honest about his Uroplatus collection, it would be much easier to respond. Personally I feel a single 55 gallon tank would be fine for two males but it was simply mentioned why not have two groups.

I for one will not sit back and deal with nonsense, if I shouldn't be allowed in a civil forum then so be it.

[pakinjak]

"At the same time, converting two 55 gallon enclosures to vertical enclosures can alleviate the floor space issue while still allowing for maintenance of two separate groups. If breeding results do not improve, perhaps rotation of certain individuals will assist in obtaining the desired results."

Bingo. That's the answer if you ask me.

I really dislike strongly getting into any kind of real discussion on a forum, since it's terribly difficult to understand and be understood properly, I'd much rather have a cigar and a campfire. But what can we do?

I think keeping separate groups for lineage purposes is superior because it provides MORE info than keeping them all together. Keep them separate even in a 1.2 and at least you know the male. Keep them 2.3 and there's a lot more confusion as to which animal(s) produced what. 1.2 you might even be able to tell which female laid. Also, one male being able to breed with several females make the info on the sire more important, IMO.

Tracking lineage is different than identifying locale because I don't honestly have any power over locale info. I can control lineage info from the comfort of my own basement . Once the majority of the animals in captivity are locale unknown, what difference does it make whether we know it or not? Sure, if we can find it out on some new imports then that's great, but most animals are going to be unknown and we have to work with that.

I meant tracking lineage info for genetic fecundity purposes, not for locale. If we can still get WC animals, then we have the opportunity to head off inbreeding before it happens. I don't know, maybe I'm the only one who thinks this way...

[Riverside Reptiles]

This is actually turning into a great thread. As mentioned by several above, let's (on all sides) keep the personal stuff out of it and stick to the sharing of information and maybe we can all learn some stuff.

I've worked with Uroplatus, but not with sikore specifically, so I'll refrain from my opinions on that part of the thread. But I have converted a crap load of tanks over the years. So, I'll comment on that. I wouldn't bust the bottom out. I'd flip the top tank over (so that the bottom became the top) and fab a center piece that A) holds the two tanks together...and B) gives you a place to put a door. It would be a lot easier to access the enclosure from the middle than it would from the top, and it would keep both tanks in tact. It would also allow you a place to install vents, fans, holes for cords, etc out of the back and/or sides. And, depending on how tall you made the fabbed center piece, you would be adding even that much more vertical space to the total enclosure size.
Or, as others have mentioned, converting them to two 55 gallon verts would make for a much smaller footprint and give you two really nice, tall enclosures. This would be a heck of a lot easier to move around if need be and allow you the ability to keep your groups separately. It would also be another way of not having to break the glass out of the bottom of a tank.
Take a look through the naturalistic viv and the diy forums for other good ideas. Or if you have any specific questions for me, feel free to ask.

[jadrig]

yeah, I think that it would have been more helpful if the original poster had stated that they DID have success in the past with breeding these geckos...But I think that the point of this thread was to test the waters and see if anyone out there had kept sikorae in a large group with NEGATIVE consequences. I am pretty sure that they had their mind made up before hand, which is perfectly fine, but just wanted to see if anyone had any good advice first hand.
I have kept several sikorae together and think that the only risk would be one less aggressive indiviual not eating...aside from that, not too risky as long as they were all around the same size.

As far as keeping 'clean bloodlines'...I think that it is pointless with sikorae at this point. They are not Amur Tigers... Also, with a crazy ratio of like 2000geckos coming in per year...and however many dozen produced in captivity...I dont think record keeping is that important for sikorae. With guentheri, having practically none coming in before this year...it would make more sense to keep up with lineage.
Also, with some of the hobbyists knowing the animals locale, what is more important? keeping a locale true, or the animal not being inbred? It would be helpful if every breeder new the exact locale of the animals, but lets be real, even the one's who do know the locales, they are taking the importer/exporters' word most instances.

[pakinjak]

I love this. It's so interesting how people think differently, and I really mean that. I'm not being smart.

Out of the 2000 or so sikorae that come in every year, I wonder how many die? If they lived 20 years it would be another thing too, but Uros have a relatively short shelf life. How old are the imports when they come in? If they're 4 years old, by the time they get settled in they may never produce. Sure, 2000 sounds like a lot, but as you mentioned, just look at the amount being produced in captivity and you'll see it's not relative to that number.

In a few years, most of the current imports will be dead, and only the then current imports and the cb animals will be around. How many will that be? If we ever stop the imports, it won't be that many compared to other geckos.

I do understand though, that sikorae aren't exactly the rarest or most difficult to breed Uros, and I was speaking more of Uros in general really when I mentioned breeding records. We should learn from the history of other reptiles and keep them as genetically sound as we can, IMO. But again, it's just MO, you're welcome to your O

[Nocturnal80]

Actually, I didnt have my mind made up. And, with all due respect I appreciate peoples OPINIONS but my question was more directed to those who have had experience with intermixing genders. Obviously when the animals are imported they dont seperate each individual. Neither do the dealers that sell them to the public but the males arent killing each other off. I currenly have five sikorae and have had atleast three at one time for the last six years and have never seen any aggression. Curiousity more then anything. Though I have never mixed two males because I feel they would need a huge enclosure. The males can see each other from where they are in the room and are not displaying aggression. Tail waving, head bobbing, etc....Which ive see them do before mating. I have always been more worried about competition for food. Sorry for the negativity but I felt uoplatus99 was taking a direct hit at me and how I keep my animals. I can keep 10 55 gallon tanks in my reptile room if I wanted but THAT ISNT THE ISSUE! Also, him and others stating that Im wasting their time because Ive already had my mind made up is just ridiculous. First, I hadnt made up my mind and still havnt. Second, grow up. The world doesnt need anymore nerd on nerd crime....lol. As for the female that keeps laying slugs even though I have seen her mate with the male. I believe it is because she had a regerated tail before I got her and may not be able to store fat as well. Others have told me they feel it may be the male. The other female that I mentioned the male isnt paying attention too already gave me babies from a different male. Thats why I would like to start a group. There will be competition for the females but I dont feel it will be aggressive. More displaying then anything. Hence my interest. As far as bloodlines are concerned. These guys are my buddies/hobby. I have three kids and dont have the time to give to a zoo...lol. Even though with the geckos, kids, and bordeaux it feels like one. My collection is small and instead of having ten seperate groups I would eventually like trade bloodlines with other hobbyists. Thats the whole point isnt it? Dialogue and education for the well being of the animals. Hope I didnt waste anyones time again....or.... DRIVE THEM CRAZY!!!!!!!!!