[luevelvet]

With the discussions being focused on calcium and vitamin requirements I felt it pertinent to start a thread to consolidate these ideas for future reference.

I'm starting to see a difference in how different each species respond to a similar regiment. For instance, we dust with MinerAll with just about every feeding, which is every other day. While the majority of our animals show little to no calcium sacs, the majority of our sikorae have shown signs of edema and very large calcium sacs. It has been mentioned in the past that sikorae have the tendency to become obese in captivity and I wonder if it isn't edema from over supplementation. My theory is based on the fact that sikorae inhabit higher elevation areas (700-1200m asl) and prefer slightly cooler temperatures. They can almost be thought of as the "montane chameleons" of the Uroplatus world. Due to their slower metabolisms, montane chameleons (most Trioceros sp. amongst others) usually require much less supplementation or face edema, much in the same way as U.sikorae.

In the beginning, we didn't know much about the individual species, thus assuming similar care and requirements for the genus as a whole. Perhaps it's time to begin looking at species specific requirements in order to provide the proper level of care, especially in mixed collections.

Thoughts?

Cheers!

Luis

[rhacoboy]

I have to agree with you on this.

My Sikorae as well as my Phantasticus females have considerably larger calcium sacks than those of my Henkeli and Lineatus females. They are all fed the same dusted insects and are fed accordingly by size. I also use the same lighting on all of my Uroplatus.

Being that Phantasticus and Sikorae are the Uroplatus that generally do seemingly better in somewhat lower temperatures, I am inclined to agree with your theory.

Though this may be just my animals, the Sikorae seem to eat more based on the size of the animal and are much more vigorous hunters. Any thoughts on this? Or is it just simply the species as a whole?

Another thing to add about specific specie requirements; In my opinion, the only thing that people have really specified to each specie is temperature and humidity requirements. Because this seems to be one of the most important aspects of keeping and breeding Uroplatus, I can understand why this has been stressed so much. But in my opinion, in order to advance ourselves in our breeding of this genus, we must continue to study other aspects of the species, including specific vitamin/calcium/feeding requirements.
Thank you, Luis, for starting this thread, and I look forward to hearing more from other experienced keepers and breeders,
-Armen

[pakinjak]

Here's my initial contribution- a picture of a CB U. Sikorae that is overweight (I guess). Her chalk sacs are HUGE and the reason I took the picture. She's with a male but I've never seen any eggs from her. I'm also posting an x-ray since it might be helpful, and will show, I think what Luis is talking about when he mentions edema. I'll hop in the discussion more when I have time, but look at the chalk sacs on this girl.

[T-ReXx]

I'll throw in my 2 cents:

As far as sikorae go, from my experience(both current and animals I've kept in the past) they are voracious feeders. More so than any of the other species I've worked with(fimbs, henks, lineatus, and phants). I'd be fairly inclined to agree that their supplementation requirements would be different than more wide-spread species like fimbriatus or henkeli. I would like to weigh in on henkeli; I am pretty solid in my belief that they require WAY more calcium than other species in the genus, females especially. From experience and talking with other keepers I have pretty much come to the conclusion that, at least with henks, you can't overdo the calcium. Females are extremely prone to crashes, and having almost lost a couple I increased my supplementation regime and have had good results. Males are a different story, I have yet to see or hear of a male who suffered from MBD when given the "usual" supplementation. I use repashy Cal plus, and am sold on it 100%. My experiences with Reptical were less than stellar. I have not tried Minerall, but I have heard good things. I also think UVB is almost 100% necessary with these guys for long term success. I'm not exactly sure where the rumor about it causing hypercalcemia started, but I don't agree with it. I am inclined to think that similar levels are required in fimbriatus and lineatus, but I haven't had enough experience with calcium problems with them to really say for sure.

[Riverside Reptiles]

I've been reading more and more about cases of gout in captive geckos lately. Not necessarily Uroplatus, but geckos in general. I wonder perhaps how much that might be an issue with Uroplatus though.

[rhacoboy]

Originally Posted by Riverside Reptiles

I've been reading more and more about cases of gout in captive geckos lately. Not necessarily Uroplatus, but geckos in general. I wonder perhaps how much that might be an issue with Uroplatus though.

I have heard of Pietschmanni becoming overweight and I believe the outcome was fatal.

I also have a female Sikorae with similar calcium sacks. She's getting very large and just began the breeding season.

-Armen

[pakinjak]

It might be helpful to know that the animal I pictured is 28g. Not a weight I would think too much for a sikorae, but looking at her tells another story.

[cricket4u]

Originally Posted by Riverside Reptiles

I've been reading more and more about cases of gout in captive geckos lately. Not necessarily Uroplatus, but geckos in general. I wonder perhaps how much that might be an issue with Uroplatus though.

Reptiles are susceptible to gout because they produce uric acid as the end product of protein and so elevated uric acid levels can lead to gout.

Another problem quite common is MBD being diagnosed and only treated with loads of calcium. Well, the problem with that is not every case is due to lack of calcium in the diet. There can be several conditions that can disrupt calcium metabolism for ex:

Kidney disease which impairs the absorption of calcium
Secondary nutritional hyperparathyroidism
Some reptiles do not absorb Vitamin D that well via supplements
Temperatures too cool

After looking at this thread below I doubt lack of calcium in the diet alone is causing problems due to the fact that her calcium sacs are full.

Sikorae necropsy, graphic photos

Has anyone tried offering a large gradient of temperatures for them to choose from? warmest side being a few degrees higher than what is believed to be necessary?

[cricket4u]

Edema is usually a sign of kidney and/or liver disease.

[pakinjak]

Again, here is where some Uroplatus specific knowledge would come in handy. Most people are just trying to keep them alive at all, much less fiddle around with keeping them too hot. Also, there just aren't people keeping them successfully to get a broad sampling from their animals and compare husbandry. Many of the keepers I know provide a temperature gradient, and I am one of them.

Has anybody seen or even heard of a case of gout in a Uroplatus, or a case of MBD in one that isn't a laying female or a juvenile? I don't think it's necessary to jump to a list of potential causes when producing eggs and extremely rapid growth cause the greater percentage of calcium/supplement related issues.

Ethan, you might be interested in this- The Roach Revolution Revelation (a theory about Reptile Gout) - Gecko Resource Forums