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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elizabeth Freer View Post
    ARAV
    TCrickets, Acheta domesticus
    J Herp Med Surg 15[1]:7-12 June 2005 Experimental Study 13 Refs
    * Mark D. Finke, PhD; Shari U. Dunham, PhD; and Christabel A. Kwabi[/U]
    That's a rather old paper to quote. I know for a fact that there are several very good brands available now that didn't exist back then. The results could very well be different if redone now, with newer brands included.

    Knocking all products based on old information isn't a great idea.

    T-Rex isn't available all over the world, yet people in those places manage to have healthy geckos using other products. It's available locally, but I refuse to use it, and my herps are doing just fine.
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  2. #12
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    I hope you guys don't mind me mentioning an observation. It appears there's a bit of confusion once again. The feeds posted by Olimpia are daily feeds and not what is actually considered gut loads. To some people gut load means to load the gut, however, Gut loading is a term used to target the nutrients most required. In other words the nutrients that insects are most deficient in such as calcium, vitamin A and vitamin E.

    This is the purpose of utilizing a higher calcium diet such as T-rex. Why not just coat the insect with calcium? It is an unpredictable method. I do apologize for not providing the source, but I have read too many studies and can't save everything. Let me know if it must be deleted.

    Many researchers have concluded that dusting crickets is an ineffective method of improving their Ca:P ratio (Trusk and Crissey 1987; Finke 2003; McClements et al. 2003). For example, in one study 100 crickets were dusted with 1/8 tsp of supplement which was 11% Ca and 3.2% P (Trusk and Crissey 1987).
    After dusting, 10 g cricket samples were collected at intervals of 5 min, 3 hrs and 22 hrs.
    Samples analyzed for each time period yielded disappointing results since the Ca:P ratio was still 12 below the desired 1:1

    I have also posted somewhere in this forum some information which states the leopard geckos fed on higher calcium had better bone ash and greater body weight than those fed regular diets which consist of only 2% calcium.

    I do use the method above, however, the crickets only make up a portion of the diet. Some of us simply work a little harder at balancing the insects than others.
    Currently keeping:

    Eublepharis gecko 2.1.0~Hemitheconyx gecko 1.0.0~Gekko gecko 1.0.0~Pogana Vitticeps 1.0.0~Varanus exanthematicus 1.1.0~Varanus acanthurus 1.0.0~Blue Tongue Skink 1.0.0~Red-eared slider 1.0.0

    Reptiles I have rehabilitated, rehomed or kept.
    All above species plus:


    Phelsuma Grandis~Rhacodactylus ciliatus~Paroedura~Rhacodactylus auriculatus ~Hemidactylus frenatus~Iguana~Turtles ~Snakes and too many more to name!
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  3. #13
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    Gutloading the Feeders versus Feeding the Feeders 24/7
    The term gutloading causes some confusion. Feed your feeders a nutritious regular diet all the time to build strong feeder bodies. Then only feed a special GUTLOAD product to the crickets 48 hours prior to feeding the crickets to your geckos. T-REX Calcium Plus Food for Crickets is the only proven gutload food as of July 2013. Especially at gutloading time be sure to provide crickets with a damp paper towel for moisture but no fruits or vegetables because the crickets will consume fruits and veggies preferentially over the calcium-enriched diet.

    Actually 5 different "treatments" offered in 6 different ways were tested in Finke's 2005 study. The 5th treatment was Timberline Cricket Power Food.

    Granted Finke's reported study is from 2005. However, many of those "treatments" are still sold including T-Rex Calcium Plus Food for Crickets. Everyone has his/her biases. Some folks do not formally "gutload" at all. It would be wonderful for someone to compare the T-Rex product with any more current actual gutload products in order to update our understanding. Anyone who knows of current independently funded studies is welcome to contribute to this knowledge pool.

    Hilde, do you provide a separate gutload product for your crickets? If so, how about sharing?
    Last edited by Elizabeth Freer; 08-25-2013 at 04:22 AM.
    "If you can hear crickets, it's still summer." ;)

    "May the peace that
    You find at the beach
    Follow you home"

    Click: Leo Care Sheet's Table of Contents

    ===> No plain calcium, calcium with D3, or multivitamins inside an enclosure <===

    Oedura castelnaui ~ Lepidodactylus lugubris ~ Phelsuma barbouri ~ Ptychozoon kuhli ~ Cyrtodactylus peguensis zebraicus ~ Phyllurus platurus ~ Eublepharis macularius ~ Correlophus ciliatus ~ (L kimhowelli) ~ (P tigrinus) ~ (P klemmeri) ~ (H garnotii)

  4. #14
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    This study was done in 2005! Do you know how amazingly OLD that data is considering the amount of herp nutritional information (as well as available products) that has happened since then? Very outdated and not likely much validity these days. Please stop shoving these various products down other members throats Elizabeth. I'm growing tired of it. There are MANY quality products available these days as well as the option of making your own feeder food and/or gutload. Just because you choose to use something does not make it the only (or best) option.
    Ethan
    ~Riverside Reptiles~
    Riverside Reptiles Online

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    To ALL GU members, please take the time to look through old threads and/or use the search feature BEFORE asking questions. GU is a huge archive of information and most of the info that you're looking for is already there just waiting for you to find it.
    GU's search feature ----> Geckos Unlimited - Search Forums

    GU's Rules: http://www.geckosunlimited.com/commu...les-rules.html

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  5. #15
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    Please correct the citation you have for the paper too on your caresheet thread, if you can? As a biologist that's driving me nuts. The one I posted is the correct citation as Dr. Finke has it on his professional website and as listed in the journal that published it.

    And my last thought on gut-loading is that I feed my insects a high-quality diet always, as if I were to feed them off at any second. When the diet is high-quality all the ingredients contribute beneficially, with ingredients naturally high in calcium and vitamins, I see no difference between an insect feed and a gutload. Another key is variety in the feeders you use - a diet of 100% crickets or mealworms is always going to be less optimal than one that contains feeders naturally high in other things, like butterworms/pheonix worms that are high in calcium, for example. Variety is vital to providing a really well-rounded, healthy diet.
    Biologist | Keeper of Chameleons and African Fat Tailed Geckos
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverside Reptiles View Post
    This study was done in 2005! Do you know how amazingly OLD that data is considering the amount of herp nutritional information (as well as available products) that has happened since then? Very outdated and not likely much validity these days. Please stop shoving these various products down other members throats Elizabeth. I'm growing tired of it. There are MANY quality products available these days as well as the option of making your own feeder food and/or gutload. Just because you choose to use something does not make it the only (or best) option.
    Ethan ~

    It is no "secret" when the study was published. That does not make it invalid for the products studied, many of which are still on the market.

    Please share more recent studies.

    Believe me, what everyone would like to see are feeder studies with more current products! Anyone who has the money to have their current products independently nutritionally analyzed, and is willing to post the results, is exactly what we are looking for. It would help to have the research be as thorough as the 2005 study, but with the current feeders we all use.

    As you well know, and have often posted, the problem is finding studies with independently funded research. Research $$ for insect studies and/or gutload studies are scarce! There are other places, (Grubco) for instance, who publish insect nutrition levels.

    You could be helpful by finding other studies of insects like hornworms, silkworms, roaches of any type that are more recent than 2005. That is what I requested in post #13. Did you see that?

    Kindly share the products you use to gutload your feeders?
    Last edited by Elizabeth Freer; 08-27-2013 at 01:34 PM.
    "If you can hear crickets, it's still summer." ;)

    "May the peace that
    You find at the beach
    Follow you home"

    Click: Leo Care Sheet's Table of Contents

    ===> No plain calcium, calcium with D3, or multivitamins inside an enclosure <===

    Oedura castelnaui ~ Lepidodactylus lugubris ~ Phelsuma barbouri ~ Ptychozoon kuhli ~ Cyrtodactylus peguensis zebraicus ~ Phyllurus platurus ~ Eublepharis macularius ~ Correlophus ciliatus ~ (L kimhowelli) ~ (P tigrinus) ~ (P klemmeri) ~ (H garnotii)
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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olimpia View Post
    Please correct the citation you have for the paper too on your caresheet thread, if you can? As a biologist that's driving me nuts. The one I posted is the correct citation as Dr. Finke has it on his professional website and as listed in the journal that published it.[/B]

    And my last thought on gut-loading is that I feed my insects a high-quality diet always, as if I were to feed them off at any second. When the diet is high-quality all the ingredients contribute beneficially, with ingredients naturally high in calcium and vitamins, I see no difference between an insect feed and a gutload. Another key is variety in the feeders you use - a diet of 100% crickets or mealworms is always going to be less optimal than one that contains feeders naturally high in other things, like butterworms/pheonix worms that are high in calcium, for example. Variety is vital to providing a really well-rounded, healthy diet.
    Will amend the title of Finke's 2005 paper to the title I have on my paper copy of that study...easy to do. That will help others more quickly locate Dr. Finke's work.

    I agree with all you have said about feeding our feeders a nutritionally sound diet 24/7 as well as feeding varied feeders to give our geckos the best nutrition we can.

    Seems like the only disagreement we might have is the difference in doing the above as well as using some "formal" gutload say 48 hours prior to feeding to tweak the insects further.
    "If you can hear crickets, it's still summer." ;)

    "May the peace that
    You find at the beach
    Follow you home"

    Click: Leo Care Sheet's Table of Contents

    ===> No plain calcium, calcium with D3, or multivitamins inside an enclosure <===

    Oedura castelnaui ~ Lepidodactylus lugubris ~ Phelsuma barbouri ~ Ptychozoon kuhli ~ Cyrtodactylus peguensis zebraicus ~ Phyllurus platurus ~ Eublepharis macularius ~ Correlophus ciliatus ~ (L kimhowelli) ~ (P tigrinus) ~ (P klemmeri) ~ (H garnotii)

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