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    Exclamation The Vet does't have a clue....


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    Basic Information
    Species of lizard: Leopard Gecko
    Gecko's name: Gizmo
    Morph:
    Gender: Male
    Age: ~5 (got him as a baby)
    Weight: 55-60g

    Enclosure dimensions (length x width x height): 24X12X12 (he was living in a 30x12x12 until he got sick)
    Substrate provided: reptile carpet

    Do not record temperature

    Insects and worms, list type: crickets, mealworms, waxworms
    Regular diet fed to the insects: carrots
    Regular diet fed to the worms: carrots

    How often do you feed your gecko? Try for 3x per week
    Please list any supplements (with brand names) used. How are they given and how often?

    If your gecko is sick, please describe the signs and how long your gecko has been showing these signs:
    August 2016 I began to notice that something didn’t seem right with Gizmo. I began noticing what I believed to be mouth rot and an eye infection in his left eye. His left eye appeared cloudy and around his mouth appeared to be infected (could see some tissue/scabbing/teeth falling out). At this point he stopped eating, but weighed ~70g. I began documenting with pictures. It is also probably a good idea to mention that Gizmo is a very “chill” leo and has no problem being handled- he has always been like that, so it wasn’t a struggle or stress on him to get pictures.
    I began to make an appointment at the nearest exotic vet in my area. One of days prior the appointment I picked him up and noticed right away he has a white cloudy watery discharge out of his left eye, with a tinge of red (like a little droplet of water sitting on his closed eye). The vet suggested that he could have an abscessed eye that had ruptured. She was unable to determine if his eye was still intact or has ruptured. She gave me an antibiotic drop for his eye and an oral antibiotic for his mouth.Giz(mouthrot)Aug2016.jpg Giz(mouthrot)Aug2016.jpg Giz(right eye)Aug2016.jpg GizSept2016.jpg
    We did the antibiotic treatments and his mouth rot seemed to completely go away and I could see now that his eyeball had not ruptured, and his eye seemed to improve as well. But it never went back to normal and I do not believe he has any vision out of his left eye (appeared dry, scratchy, and reflected a dark blue colour), I just thought that’s how it healed from whatever infection he had, and I’m lucky he made it. He began to eat again, everything seemed dandy with my one-eyed guy! My vet continued contact with me through email. Everything seemed well.
    Then I began noticing these, what I describe as, ‘white tissue growths’ in the both hinges of his jaw- just below his eyes Gix(mouthtissue)Aug2016.jpg - my vet had no clue what these were and began research, but she never got down to an answer. At this point I was not sure if the white tissue growths were related to the issue with his eye (because there were two white tissue growths, one on both sides of his head…but only his left eye was effected). These things appeared to stay the same size for months.
    Then I began noticing the left eye start developing this, what I called, “white film” Giz(whitefilm).jpg that would kind of flake off, if rubbed by a wet cotton swab across it… but even with flushing the eye with water the eye remained cloudy with a layer of this white film Giz(afterclearingwhitefilm).jpg . The tissue in the hinges of his jaw remained the same size for months and the mouth rot along his mouth, never returned. One day I was looking at his mouth and was using a wet cotton swab to help open his mouth and one of the white tissue grows popped right out of his jaw/cheek right in front of me. It was a solid chunk, brownish-white in colour, and a little spongy. I was relieved.. thinking whatever was going on has stopped and these things are maybe drying up and falling out!
    Fast forward 2 months and now the white tissue growths in his cheeks are growing big and now the RIGHT side is putting pressure into his eye socket making it so that he cannot see out of it (I think these two issues are related now..). His right eye is now also showing small amounts of the white film on the left eye. He has stopped eating, I imagine not being able to see out of either eyes is stressing and it may be painful to eat now. He is a lot smaller than he used to be, I think he’s just on the verge of being sickly skinny, but OK for now. Pictures to come!

    Vet in the beginning suggested that it could be retained skin, abscessed eye, eye injury from food, etc. etc. Then I mentioned Vitamin A deficiency possibly? And she wasn’t sure and was going to find out for me. I did some research and decided to switch him to Zoo Med Reptivite with D3 for dusting food and Zoo Med Calcium without D3 always in his tank. I didn’t notice any changes in his health.

    I’m basically hoping someone has seen this before and can tell me what it is so I can tell my vet ☹
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Thanks Elizabeth Freer thanked for this post

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by n.brydges
    ......Do not record temperature......Vet in the beginning suggested that it could be retained skin, abscessed eye, eye injury from food, etc. etc. Then I mentioned Vitamin A deficiency possibly? And she wasn’t sure and was going to find out for me. I did some research and decided to switch him to Zoo Med Reptivite with D3 for dusting food and Zoo Med Calcium without D3 always in his tank. I didn’t notice any changes in his health.
    Please get a Zoo Med digital thermometer with a probe for about $10
    so we can see how temps measure up. ZM has a yellow digital thermometer that's pretty good. Measure temps right on the ground underneath the warm dry hide. Please share.

    I've never seen problems so pervasive. I have periodically seen cloudy eyes before in some of my geckos.

    I'm glad you've switched to Zoo Med's ReptiVite multivitamins. How frequently do you lightly dust Gizmo's feeders now? Perhaps it would be better for you to lightly dust his feeders rather than leaving plain calcium carbonate in his enclosure.

    What brand multivitamins and D3 calcium had you used in the past?

    I recommend feeding a dry diet to Gizmo's bugs and worms 24/7. Some of those also contain vitamin A acetate (retinol). Would you like some recommendations?
    "If you can hear crickets, it's still summer." ;)

    "May the peace that
    You find at the beach
    Follow you home"
    Click:
    Leopard Gecko Caresheet
    Health Questionnaire

    ===> No plain calcium, calcium with D3, or multivitamins inside a vivarium <===

    Oedura castelnaui ~ Lepidodactylus lugubris ~ Phelsuma barbouri ~ Ptychozoon kuhli ~ Cyrtodactylus peguensis zebraicus ~ Phyllurus platurus ~ Eublepharis macularius ~ Correlophus ciliatus ~ (L. kimhowelli) ~ (P. tigrinus) ~ (H. garnotii)

  3. #3
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    #95---Vitamin A in Chameleons: Friend or Foe?...Ivan Alfonso, DVM

    Vitamin A in Chameleons: Friend or Foe?
    by Ivan Alfonso, DVM on 15 June 2011

    "Vitamin A has a long history in reptile medicine and unfortunately, most of that history isn’t good. It started mainly with turtles developing puffy eyes which was determined to be the result of Vitamin A deficiency. Supplementing with vitamin A became popular and almost every eye ailment in turtles and tortoises alike was attributed to Vitamin A deficiencies. Unfortunately it is a lot easier to overdose with vit A than underdose, and many turtles and tortoises (especially tortoises) developed severe issues due to the overdose. Since then, vitamin A became public enemy and many supplements switched to its precursor (beta- carotene) as the source for vitamin A. The reasoning being that you can’t overdose beta-carotene and reptiles, like mammals, would be able to manufacture Vitamin A from it. And so was the understanding for many, many years until reptile medicine advanced and research, true research, was done with vitamin A and its benefits.

    "Recently, and I say recently in relative terms, vitamin A has been discovered to play an important role in eye function, skin health and reproductive function in reptiles among other things. In chameleons, vitamin A plays an important role in keeping the overall health of the reptile and some species need it more than others. It has been my experience that species that are known to include vertebrate prey as part of their diet will need vitamin A in larger quantities than those who are strict insectivores. Panthers, Veileds, Mellers, Oustalets, Verrucosus and to some degree Parson’s all have shown some degree of vitamin A needs. Jackson’s, Mountain, Four-Horned, Giant Three-Horned and other montane species seem to benefit from vitamin A but at much lower levels.

    "So how much vitamin A is really needed? So far nobody knows for sure and that’s why it is better to not use too much and be safe. But, when used sporadically and responsibly, vitamin A is an invaluable ally in keeping chameleon health, especially in actively breeding females. I normally recommend using vitamin A in its palmitate form once every 14 days and only 1 little drop at that. On montane species, the dose can be every 21 days. For breeding females I like doing it every 10 days for lowland species and every 14 days for montane species. I use my own mix of vitamins that I make myself for my reptiles and have had great success, but any vitamin A palmitate should work just as good.

    "But what about the study that says vitamin A deficiencies are rare? There is such a study and it has been used as a rule in many places. However, the study failed to actually examine every lizard species. The study likely used Iguanas and maybe some carnivorous lizard such as Tegus or Monitors as the subjects. Herbivorous lizards are capable of deriving their vitamin A from precursors found in high carotene items such as carrots, sweet potatoes and squash among others. Carnivorous lizards can get all the vitamin A they need by ingesting the flesh of their prey, being that vitamin A is a fat-soluble vitamin and found in the fat and tissues of vertebrates. So yes, it is very easy to overdose vitamin A in herbivores and carnivores, but what about insectivores? Where is the study on them? A small study was done many years ago where Panther chameleons would show a dramatic health improvement when provided with pre-formed vitamin A. Why would that be? Think about it…..chameleons and all insectivores depend solely on their insect prey to pass along all their nutrition. In captivity, our feeder insects never get the same nutrition they would in the wild therefore providing less than optimal vitamin levels to our chameleons.

    "Add to this an even more recent study where it has been proven that reptiles in general do not metabolize beta-carotene into vitamin A, they actually use different precursors for this. We immediately find ourselves depriving our chameleons entirely of vitamin A and then thinking that’s ok because too much vitamin A is bad. Extremes are bad, we need to aim for the balance, the middle of the road, and it is hard to do when you don’t know just how much to give.

    "My advice is to not neglect vitamin A in your chameleon’s diet regardless of the species. They need it but maybe in very small amounts. If you use vitamin supplements that contain the active form of vitamin A or pre-formed vitamin A, then use them sporadically as stated above. If you use the liquid form of vitamin A, be careful and use also very sporadically. Aim for very little exposure to the vitamin but some exposure none the less. I have managed to treat many chameleons, mainly panthers, with chronic health problems with a protocol of vitamin A dosing. Not every chameleon issue is due to vitamin A problems and with proper nutrition and supplementation, vitamin A issues should be rare, but don’t think that vitamin A isn’t necessary because you will be running into issues sooner or later."
    "If you can hear crickets, it's still summer." ;)

    "May the peace that
    You find at the beach
    Follow you home"
    Click:
    Leopard Gecko Caresheet
    Health Questionnaire

    ===> No plain calcium, calcium with D3, or multivitamins inside a vivarium <===

    Oedura castelnaui ~ Lepidodactylus lugubris ~ Phelsuma barbouri ~ Ptychozoon kuhli ~ Cyrtodactylus peguensis zebraicus ~ Phyllurus platurus ~ Eublepharis macularius ~ Correlophus ciliatus ~ (L. kimhowelli) ~ (P. tigrinus) ~ (H. garnotii)

  4. #4
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    #96---Supplementation & Diet: bugs, worms, & geckos......Hilde (July 2014)

    Part 1
    "I don't use Ca in the enclosure. Way back, almost 20 years ago, and up until 2000, yes, I did use it, because that's what everyone said. After doing some research, including some detailed articles from experts, not forum posters, I removed the Ca and changed my insect feeding routine. Like I've said before, build a better cricket body, and your geckos will benefit.

    "My gutload (insect food recipe) changes every time I fill the crickets' food bowls. I have a staple mix, something that's there all the time, but even the proportions of that change with each batch. The only thing that's the same is the ingredients, the amount of each varies. Then the extra food items like fruit, veggies, oddball things, changes daily. Even though some of the food doesn't have the recommended Ca:P ratio, sometimes it's off on the 'bad' side, it's never that way for long. Give them some banana slices today, considered a 'bad ratio', they won't have any for a few more days, maybe weeks. Tomorrow they might get prickly pear for their fruit, which more than balances out the bananas from the day before. Same with veggies, even 'bad' ratio ones will get balanced out by the 'good' ones they'll get.

    "The crickets get a lot of variety in their diet. I buy the smaller ones so I have a few weeks to gutload them, improve their overall nutrition. The staple diet is a mix of various whole grain flours and/or other ground grains, dried legumes (grind them myself if need be) as well as monkey chow biscuits. This mix is always present, the fruit and veggies change daily, heavy on the prickly pear because it's good food, great water source, and they love it.

    "If you use only one gutload all the time, same brand, or even a couple of brands, you are really limiting the nutrients that the crickets get, and pass on to the geckos. Not one brand is complete, some are better than others, but there's a limit to what's inside. It's not just a matter of how well the ingredients work in a mixture, but also cost - if the ingredient is too expensive, it won't be in a gutload no matter how nutritious it is. That's why I vary the diet. Wild insects have access to a variety of foods that grow in their area, very few stick to just one food source. Crickets will eat must about anything growing around them, they'll even nibble on animal carcasses, though they're not really carnivores, just opportunistic scavengers.

    "Since using that gutload method, I haven't had to use Ca in the enclosures for any leopards, AFTs, U. milii, Teratoscincus, chameleons, or any of the other species. The crickets get dusted once a week, mix of Ca and vitamins. The rest of their Ca comes from the crickets.

    "It's a well known fact that too much Vit D3 and/or Ca can cause 'reverse' MBD. Dusting with D3 can cause problems, you might not realize you're giving too much, or too little. A young, growing, leo will show the signs a lot faster than an adult. Give too much D3, the Ca gets leached out of the bones. Don't give enough Ca, or D3, and again, the bones suffer. If letting them self-dose with Ca improves the situation, then obviously you're not doing something right. No gecko should have to lap up Ca to get enough. Something is off in the Ca : D3 ratio.

    "Even just a couple of licks of Ca can supply a heck of a big dose of it. Consider a tongue full of Ca for a hatchling, compare that to a human adult getting a lick of Ca the same 'size'. That would be like a tablespoon of Ca. Have you ever had that much Ca daily, or weekly, in one sitting? I bet not. That much would be the equivalent of several weeks' worth of Ca for you. Yet we don't think there's anything wrong when we let the geckos dose themselves with that much? The amount the gecko licks would coat the inside of the intestines and hinder absorption of other nutrients, like D3. If by any chance the gecko is getting too much D3, licking the Ca by the tongue full will actually prevent it from absorbing the excess D3, making it look like the gecko needed more Ca to fix the problem, when it actually used the Ca to stop the excess D3 from being absorbed."

    Part 2
    "I'm not saying that is the problem with the juvie geckos you mentioned, but it is one possible reason they improved after self-dosing. Considering that most dusted insects are actually so loaded down with powder that they look like snowmen instead of just lightly dusted, there's a really good chance that the geckos were overdosed on D3. Most supplements contain a rather high dose of D3, heavily dusting the crickets would give a big dose of D3.

    "It's a bit of work to keep the gutload routine, lots of variety, but it's worth it. It doesn't even have to be expensive. Summer is a good time, lots of free plant sources outside. When I go out walking the trails, I'll gather a few things for the crickets. There's lots of variety from the garden too. Dandelion blossoms and leaves, chicory, lambs' quarters, even herbs. Sunflowers are really good sources. The leaves (torn into pieces because they can be a bit tough for the crickets to bite into), even slices of sunflower stalks in the fall after the flowers are done. A chunk of blossom, complete with seeds can be used, another favourite food.

    "There are so many choices available for feeding the crickets, many free or dirt cheap. The variety adds nutrients that are probably not found in commercial foods, or maybe just in minute amounts. It also serves up the vitamins and minerals in a more natural way, safer dosage, and probably more delicious (might help with those picky geckos who don't like to eat dusted bugs)."

    In the end, the geckos are the winners.
    "If you can hear crickets, it's still summer." ;)

    "May the peace that
    You find at the beach
    Follow you home"
    Click:
    Leopard Gecko Caresheet
    Health Questionnaire

    ===> No plain calcium, calcium with D3, or multivitamins inside a vivarium <===

    Oedura castelnaui ~ Lepidodactylus lugubris ~ Phelsuma barbouri ~ Ptychozoon kuhli ~ Cyrtodactylus peguensis zebraicus ~ Phyllurus platurus ~ Eublepharis macularius ~ Correlophus ciliatus ~ (L. kimhowelli) ~ (P. tigrinus) ~ (H. garnotii)

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    Have you tried flushing Gizmo's left eye with normal saline? It may be soothing.
    "If you can hear crickets, it's still summer." ;)

    "May the peace that
    You find at the beach
    Follow you home"
    Click:
    Leopard Gecko Caresheet
    Health Questionnaire

    ===> No plain calcium, calcium with D3, or multivitamins inside a vivarium <===

    Oedura castelnaui ~ Lepidodactylus lugubris ~ Phelsuma barbouri ~ Ptychozoon kuhli ~ Cyrtodactylus peguensis zebraicus ~ Phyllurus platurus ~ Eublepharis macularius ~ Correlophus ciliatus ~ (L. kimhowelli) ~ (P. tigrinus) ~ (H. garnotii)

  6. #6
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    How frequently do you lightly dust Gizmo's feeders now? Perhaps it would be better for you to lightly dust his feeders rather than leaving plain calcium carbonate in his enclosure.
    I usually try to dust whenever he is offered food, because he is barely eating anything now. Before after his brief recovery where I thought he was better, I still dusted all the food he ate

    What brand multivitamins and D3 calcium had you used in the past?
    Flukers calcium with D3

    I recommend feeding a dry diet to Gizmo's bugs and worms 24/7. Some of those also contain vitamin A acetate (retinol). Would you like some recommendations?
    Sure!

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    I have done regular flushing with water since this all started

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by n.brydges View Post
    I have done regular flushing with water since this all started
    Normal saline like that found in Blink Contact Lens Wetting Solution has some "medicinal" properties. It's definitely worth a try. Don't buy the contact lens cleaning solution.
    "If you can hear crickets, it's still summer." ;)

    "May the peace that
    You find at the beach
    Follow you home"
    Click:
    Leopard Gecko Caresheet
    Health Questionnaire

    ===> No plain calcium, calcium with D3, or multivitamins inside a vivarium <===

    Oedura castelnaui ~ Lepidodactylus lugubris ~ Phelsuma barbouri ~ Ptychozoon kuhli ~ Cyrtodactylus peguensis zebraicus ~ Phyllurus platurus ~ Eublepharis macularius ~ Correlophus ciliatus ~ (L. kimhowelli) ~ (P. tigrinus) ~ (H. garnotii)

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by n.brydges View Post
    How frequently do you lightly dust Gizmo's feeders now? Perhaps it would be better for you to lightly dust his feeders rather than leaving plain calcium carbonate in his enclosure.
    I usually try to dust whenever he is offered food, because he is barely eating anything now. Before after his brief recovery where I thought he was better, I still dusted all the food he ate

    What brand multivitamins and D3 calcium had you used in the past?
    Flukers calcium with D3
    Calcium with D3 products are best dusted lightly dusted upon prey 1x per week.

    I recommend feeding a dry diet to Gizmo's bugs and worms 24/7. Some of those also contain vitamin A acetate (retinol). Would you like some recommendations?
    Sure!
    Get some Zoo Med's Natural Adult Bearded Dragon Food. Finely grind it and feed it to the bugs and worms 24/7.

    Oxbow's Carnivore Care, an all-in-one powdered assist food you mix with water, can be ordered off Amazon. Here's the way to keep Carnivore Care viable beyond 7 days.

    Oxbow's vet says Carnivore Care only has a 7 day shelf life because it has no preservatives. He says you can open it and make daily portions this way.

    • Open product.
    • Remove a daily portion. (Maybe you could do a "couple day" portion?)
    • Repackage in a snack size ziplock.
    • Remove any air as you seal the ziplock.
    • Freeze up to 3 months.

    I'm sorry Gizmo's health is not improving. If Gizmo's appetite improves, I recommend getting some Zoo Med ReptiVite multivitamins without vitamin D3.
    "If you can hear crickets, it's still summer." ;)

    "May the peace that
    You find at the beach
    Follow you home"
    Click:
    Leopard Gecko Caresheet
    Health Questionnaire

    ===> No plain calcium, calcium with D3, or multivitamins inside a vivarium <===

    Oedura castelnaui ~ Lepidodactylus lugubris ~ Phelsuma barbouri ~ Ptychozoon kuhli ~ Cyrtodactylus peguensis zebraicus ~ Phyllurus platurus ~ Eublepharis macularius ~ Correlophus ciliatus ~ (L. kimhowelli) ~ (P. tigrinus) ~ (H. garnotii)

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    #126---Monthly Feeding & Supplement Schedule for leopard geckos 18 months old +

    Feed an adult leopard gecko crickets or dubia 2x per week and mealworms 1x per week:
    Crickets or dubia>Monday
    Crickets or dubia>Thursday
    Mealworms>Saturday

    • Use Zoo Med Repti Calcium with D3 1x per week. Lightly dust it on half the crickets or dubia, not every insect at that feeding.
    • Use Zoo Med ReptiVite multivitamins without D3 lightly dusted on crickets or dubia every other week or 2x per month. Maybe only lightly dust half of the insects at that feeding.
    • Use some plain precipitated calcium carbonate (purer than oyster shell calcium). The NOW brand sold in health foods stores is ideal.

    Feed finely ground Zoo Med's Natural Adult Bearded Dragon Food (or an equivalent high quality dry diet) 24/7 to the insects and worms to cover the basics. Add high calcium, low phosphorus veggies like collard greens, mustard greens, turnip greens, and pesticide-free dandelion flowers/greens in a dish off to the side for extra calcium and for moisture! Vary your leopard gecko's diet. Crickets, Blaptica dubia, hornworms, Phoenix worms, and silkworms are all good.

    Nutritional Comparisons of Insects & Worms


    Monthly Schedule for Leos 18 months old +

    Week 1:
    Crickets or dubia>Monday- Zoo Med Repti Calcium with D3
    Crickets or dubia>Thursday- no dusting
    Mealworms>Saturday- no dusting

    Week 2:
    Crickets or dubia>Monday- Zoo Med Repti Calcium with D3
    Crickets or dubia>Thursday- Zoo Med ReptiVite multivitamins without D3
    Mealworms>Saturday- no dusting

    Week 3:
    Crickets or dubia>Monday- Zoo Med Repti Calcium with D3
    Crickets or dubia>Thursday- no dusting
    Mealworms>Saturday- no dusting

    Week 4:
    Crickets or dubia>Monday- Zoo Med Repti Calcium with D3
    Crickets or dubia>Thursday- Zoo Med ReptiVite multivitamins without D3
    Mealworms>Saturday- no dusting

    Week 5:
    Continue this every other week schedule.
    "If you can hear crickets, it's still summer." ;)

    "May the peace that
    You find at the beach
    Follow you home"
    Click:
    Leopard Gecko Caresheet
    Health Questionnaire

    ===> No plain calcium, calcium with D3, or multivitamins inside a vivarium <===

    Oedura castelnaui ~ Lepidodactylus lugubris ~ Phelsuma barbouri ~ Ptychozoon kuhli ~ Cyrtodactylus peguensis zebraicus ~ Phyllurus platurus ~ Eublepharis macularius ~ Correlophus ciliatus ~ (L. kimhowelli) ~ (P. tigrinus) ~ (H. garnotii)

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