williamsi hatchlings failure to thrive.

GPSHSLAX · #1 08-07-2010, 12:06 AM

I have a pair of L. williamsi that were given to me by a friend. They breed prolifically and there are always eggs in the cage. I have either succesfully incubated or captured about 8 - 10 hatchling since I received them but I can't keep them alive more than about a month. Some seem week and don't last more than about a week but others start of strong, eat vigerously and have seemed to shed properly, then suddenly they drop all their weight and die nearly overnight.

I feed them fruit puree and whatever small inverts I can keep on hand, usually pinheads (dusted of course), but also fruit flies and spring tails.

The enclosure may be the problem given some of that I have read here today but I wanted opinions. I am using a fairly small (maybe half gallon) critter keeper style enclosure. I taped off all the larger openings in the lid to prevent escapes. Substrate is ground coco, there is a small water dish with never more than .25" of water, and a small sprig of pothos with 3 leaves. Aside from lower veg. it is very similar to the adult's exoterra. It does not have it's own lamp but it does sit on the table immediatly in front of a phelsuma cage with a very bright UV on it near the front of the cage. Of course this light is being filtered by a pane of glass and a pane of plastic before it reaches the hatchlings.

Advise please. I'm not opposed to trying a bigger enclosure (although I'm not sure how to secure one well enough to prevent escape) although we are tight on space. It just seems a waste for them all to die, and the rate these guys breed the sale of their offspring would pay for all the other geckos food.

I promised the guy who gave them too me that he would get the first surviving pair one he set up his new appartment (any when I'm heading by that part of the country) and I feel like I'm dissapointing (although he got a couple hatchlings and couldn't keep them alive either).

Help!

hexentanz · #2 08-07-2010, 01:38 AM

There are a few things here I would question myself if this were me in the situation.

1.) Whether or not the female has adequate nutrition as this also plays a role in the survival of her offspring. What are you using to supplement her, what is her diet in general? Is crushed cuttlefish bone being left in the vivarium in addition at all times for her? Is she wild caught, if so has she been allowed a significant amount of time to build herself back up before breeding?

2.) If everything is fine with her ie: high quality supplements are being used, she has been allowed time to build herself back up and she is being supplied a good amount of calcium, etc. I would more look to the fact that the hatchlings are left without their own direct source of UVB.

I have found that UVB exposure plays a very important part in keeping Lygodactylus hatchlings alive.

Another thing I have found is that Lygodactylus hatchlings do best in glass enclosures.

Even after this some just do not make it despite all you have done and done properly.

Lygodactylus juvies have been noted time and time again as some of the more tricky offspring to keep alive.

I hope this all makes sense. Cats had me up since 4am.

GPSHSLAX · #3 08-07-2010, 11:46 AM

The female's in good shape. The pair was captive born (or so the shop my buddy purchased them at said) and their condition is also quite good (actually a little fat probably). They also get ample calcium.

The little ones I find most baffeling arent a weak few that seem doomed from the start, but those that seem strong and thrive for about a months then suddenly death spiral. Perhaps I need to get them some direct UVB. This probably means they will have to be moved to enclosure I don't have to work about melting.

hexentanz · #4 08-07-2010, 11:54 AM

How many hatchlings are you keeping in the critter keeper at once and how big is the keeper?

MauricesExoticPets · #5 08-07-2010, 12:32 PM

UVB is a must.

The insects must be well fed, and should be offered in small numbers several times per day.

The fruit puree can be mixed with 1% vitamin powder and 1% calcium carbonate with vitamin D3 added.

Offer more hides, a larger enclosure to allow thermoregulation, and proper air exchange.

Maurice Pudlo

GPSHSLAX · #6 08-07-2010, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hexentanz

How many hatchlings are you keeping in the critter keeper at once and how big is the keeper?

Usually 1 or 2 depending if I catch both before the adults get them. Once I had 3 but one was very weak and died almost immediatly. The keeper is somewhat small, progbably 6" X 9" X 7.5" high. The odd thing is I think the pairs have done better than the individuals. I also tried the mason jar thing once. I used a plastic jar and turned it upside down so the cap held the substrate. I drilled a large number of small holes in the bottom the jar will a very small drill bit. Same overall result. Happy and eating for a couple of weeks, then suddenly stopped climbing the walls the died within a day or so.

hexentanz · #7 08-07-2010, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GPSHSLAX

Usually 1 or 2 depending if I catch both before the adults get them. Once I had 3 but one was very weak and died almost immediatly. The keeper is somewhat small, progbably 6" X 9" X 7.5" high. The odd thing is I think the pairs have done better than the individuals. I also tried the mason jar thing once. I used a plastic jar and turned it upside down so the cap held the substrate. I drilled a large number of small holes in the bottom the jar will a very small drill bit. Same overall result. Happy and eating for a couple of weeks, then suddenly stopped climbing the walls the died within a day or so.

Yeah you are going to want something bigger than that. 5 or 10 gallons. If you cannot find a proper screen lid for it you can easily build one. Either that or a large (glass) mason jar with a good sized hole drilled through the top cap and a screen covering the hole to allow for good air exchange.

As Maurice has mentioned, a proper well though out enclosure where they can maintain good thermoregulation is also key in their survival!

GPSHSLAX · #8 08-07-2010, 04:52 PM

In the mason jar setup what do you do for the light. Too small for a reflector I should think.

I have a couple old 10's that could be converted but I fear I wont be able to find the little ones in there. Perhaps I could convert it into section and keep them seperated. Any suggestions are appreciated.

hexentanz · #9 08-07-2010, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GPSHSLAX

In the mason jar setup what do you do for the light. Too small for a reflector I should think.

I have a couple old 10's that could be converted but I fear I wont be able to find the little ones in there. Perhaps I could convert it into section and keep them seperated. Any suggestions are appreciated.

I am not sure if you saw this posting Raising hatchling phelsuma , but check it out of not. Particularly the second and third pic for ideas.

Quite honestly I would not worry about being able to find them, as they need to be able to hide out a bit. If you fuss over them a lot it will stress them out. The only interaction I give mine is adding a new bamboo in if I have to place one more hatchling in the tank, misting and feeding and small cleanings here and there of feces.

Btw another question came to mind. How often did you feed the young ones?

MauricesExoticPets · #10 08-07-2010, 10:22 PM

One hint for feeding the smaller gecko species is to pre-seed the enclosure with springtails and a few of the smaller isopods. This helps fill in the feeding of mainly melanogaster for the first few months.

Wingless melanogaster are better than simple flightless but winged versions, they should be lightly dusted with calcium +d3.

Don't forget that the larva are also useable as feeders, a little more tricky to feed but worth the effort.

True pin head crickets should be raised by you, a pair of crickets will produce some 250 pin head crickets for you, feed the pins for one day then offer them to the geckos. If you are feeding your feeders now I'd like to know the ingredients and measures, I may be able to identify issues there.

Waxworms when reared at home produce some pretty tiny feeders early in their development, and like many feeders can be a good part of a diverse diet.

There are other micro feeders that might also work, corn weevils are fairly small, and might be accepted once the hatchlings are a bit larger.

I think the main issue is housing though, the gallon jars are a great idea if done right. Its kind of hard to screen the lids if your not extra crafty. The screen is important though, UVB will not pass through glass or plastic. The gallon jars being tall have a vertical thermal gradient, be careful though that they do not over heat.

As has been pointed out, singular housing almost always works out best, especially when the enclosure is small and has limited hides. Don't worry so much about maintence for the first few months, the plants and isopods will take care of that. When time comes to do cleaning simply having a second container ready to go will limit the time you have to handle the gecko. This also limits the time the gecko is out of an optimal environment.

You mentioned the parrents were captive born, ask the shop to hook you up with the breeder for some direct help. 999 times out of a thousand they will hem and haw over giving up their sources for critters, mainly because they buy wholesale and have no clue, but you might get lucky.

Maurice Pudlo