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Thread: No UV on L williamsi
11-19-2012, 12:02 AM #1
No UV on L williamsi
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12 L williamsi hatchlings (one death from crushing)
3 wild caught (2 deaths: one eaten by water dragon, one failed to acclimate)
1 adult male..alive and well.
F2 offspring (F3 as soon as I get a unrelated male)
I kept Phelsuma for almost 20 years, without UV lights (artificial or sunlight), raising over 974 from eggs, 29 different Phelsuma species, and various other geckos.
Less than 10 cases of MBD have occurred (no williamsi) which can be explained by causes other than lack of UV light. (...I document everything)
I am not a lone rogue keeper. Others keep geckos this way. I learned from an expert of 30 years with numerous gecko species, including Lygodactylus williamsi. It is not a secret method. It was published in Day Geckos In Captivity and Reptiles Magazine.
The challenge in L williamsi is keeping them fed and hydrated, proper habitat, correct environment.
Maureen has williamsi down to a science, with UV lights. I've applied my experience with Phelsuma to williamsi and no UV lights work fine.
Why say all this? There is an alternative to UV lights: a sound and proven method. Don't say it can't be done...it's being done right now.
11-19-2012, 12:56 AM #2
Leanne, are you lighting their cages at all?into the sun...
11-19-2012, 10:26 AM #3
Of course each enclosure is lighted...with the best lights found.
The not so secret to no-UV husbandry is better lighting.
The only improvement I could make is to go T5. Working on this.
Philips Fluorescent High Performance T8 tube
$4.00 per bulb (I buy a case of 30)
Color Temperature 5000K (Daylight)
40,000-46,000 life hours, 12 hour day or about 3 years service
Color Rating Index 82
More information http://www.usa.lighting.philips.com/...2011_LORES.pdf
REAL Halogen basking light, on dimmer
11-21-2012, 06:39 PM #4
Hey leann what is your vitamin regiment. Id like to raise my baby day geckos without uvb but scared I will mess up the vitamins.
11-22-2012, 07:48 AM #5
Leann, I do actually keep some of them without UVB since a long time now. I had a thread sometime late last year where I had mentioned I was doing a study and then at one point I said it had failed, but then had to continue it because we could not get to the store to buy the UVB bulbs, I never updated the thread in the end further with my results because it was so far gone back in to the history, that I did not want to dig it up anymore and felt anyone who wanted to pursue things would contact me and they did.
I still suggest UVB lamps to this day, but only to beginners, as I strongly feel the non UVB route should not be carried out by someone who does not have years worth of experience under their belt. Re (up above): Previously I did not suggest the lamps and mentioned 'oh yeah i can do it without UVB, so you should be able to as well' and in the end it did not work out for them even with all of my advice and then I was the one to blame for their losses despite it not being my fault.
We need to remember we are on a forum where there is a bunch of mixed experiences and what works for some of us will not work for all of us.
I also strongly feel that not only do the insects play a strong role in the survival without UVB, but also the type of vitamins we use (these too as you know vary greatly), so this is why I play things carefully these days and do not suggest this to anyone who does not have years worth of experience dealing with feeders, vitamins, geckos, etc.
11-22-2012, 08:52 AM #6
Interestingly, a study on a tortoise group under various type of of lighting (UVB Mercury vapor lamp, natural sunlight light, UVB light) was just published.
The lamp and fluorescent light were used as directed by the manufacturer.
Temperature, time of, year, diet, etc were kept within equal parameters.
Vitamin D3 levels in the blood were measured at the start and 35 days into the study. As expected, the natural sunlight group maintained their vitamin D levels throughout the study. The UVB lamp and fluorescent light tortoises' vitamin D levels dropped precipitously in just 35 days.
American Journal of Veterinary Research. Paolo Selleri, DMV, PhD; Nicola Di Girolamo, DMV. Plasma 25-hydroxyvitamin D3 concentrations in Hermann's tortoises (Testudo hermanni) exposed to natural sunlight and two artificial ultraviolet radiation sources. November 2012, Vol. 73, No. 11.
This study did NOT look at adding greater levels of D3 and calcium under non UV lights. Too bad. If they did they may have had a whole new group result to compare.
The vitamin regiment is important but the variable of superior light is also very, very important. I have read another research paper of the effects of lighting on Phelsuma grandis. A good vitamin regiment and poor light is not as effective.
The technique as simply explained in a forum: Florescent light of daylight quality, 5000K or better, CRI in the range of 85 - 100, high lumins (T8 or T5 without going into detail). Add a basking light, halogen preferable.
For day geckos, at each meal, calcium and D3 in greater quantities, and the ratio of D3 greater nearly 2:1 to vitamin A.
There is a book that explains all aspects of environment and light that must be met, and how to evaluate and choose vitamin supplements. When it was published T5 were not available for reptiles so the recommendation was T8. It predicted T5 and compact fluorescent bulbs would eventually be the bulbs of choice for reptiles....and they are now standard in the industry.
The Book is Day Geckos In Captivity.
Amazon new & used
Day Geckos in Captivity: Leann Christenson, Greg Christenson: 9780963813022: Amazon.com: Books
(ignore the ones listed at $70 + which is ridiculous)
or a signed copy from me
Day Geckos in Captivity
I lectured on this "way back when" at national reptile shows but few believed it.
11-22-2012, 03:29 PM #7
Hey leann Iv got your book so im gonna do some more reading thanks.
11-23-2012, 10:57 AM #8
11-24-2012, 09:17 AM #9
Surely this begs the question that if you supply U.V.B. would you get better results? It would be interesting to conduct a study keeping the same species of gecko under the same regime but one set with U.V.B and vitamins and the other with vitamins only.
For those who are concerned about the cost of the tubes,U.V.B. tubes do not have to be on for the full daylight period.
11-24-2012, 04:21 PM #10
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When using UVB lights, gecko coloration was poorer, activity was reduced. This is due to the reduced lumins, intensity and CRI quality in UV Bulbs.
Due to the decreasing rate (decay) of UVB over time, efficiency of D3 conversion was reduced under UV lights and consequently egg production and increased MBD incidence. Morbidity (death) is increased under UV lights.
Since keeping records, noting every death that occurs in my facility, there was a marked decrease of yearly deaths and incident of disease. P. klemmeri and P. ornata live to 12 years, P. barbouri to 15 years, P. standinigi to 20 years. (15 years of documentation as proof)
Geckos were not "breed" to death. I have a P. robertmertensi that produced vital eggs when she was 11 years old. In one case, when put under high quality lights, a old pair of P. standingi (over 16 years old) that had not produced eggs in years began laying viable eggs again.
In two separate facilities (one in Oklahoma and mine in Alabama), the use of dietary D3 and high quality non-UV lights proved better for geckos.