What's Next??

[Coleonyx]

ALL of my banded geckos are wild caught, and I have no problem with it. Construction for homes spread like wildfire in vegas. One day, perfect desert, next day, broken land and housing lots. it comes without warning. i breed the geckos, hoping that captive bred coleonyx sound more appealing than taking the wild ones.
I wish I could get a permit for C. switaki and reticulatus, and do the same, but government is very strict. :roll:

 

[Viking]

This is a very interesting conversation. I am a newbie to this list but have interests in many other species of pets. This kind of event has happened buy times before in human history. Just looks at dogs. They are all from one common ancester. There are over four hundred varieties today. The parakeet have one normal ancester the bright green with a yellow. Look at the dozen of different color combination today. It is a kind of evolution. The developed mutations that human found interesting, beautiful, or more durabily to living with humans. The market will settle down to mostly the other color morphs at sligthly higher price.

Also any species of animals that human start breeding in large numbers evolve to live with humans and usually develope new colors. Just look at pet birds, fish, cats, dogs, and plants. Also in the long ride the animals will be more likely survive minor neglect because they are the ones used in the future generations. And the same time new mutations will be found. You also have to remember that introduced mutation like gene splitting is starting to be seen now. I have some zebra fish (danio) that have a sea anemone gene added to give pink color. It if very expensive to do the first but the trait is now permanent. You might one day "true" designer reptiles like in the movie 'Bladerunner.'

Just my thoughts on the subject.

Scott

 

[Zach Whitman]

Isn't there room for both? I think that natural morphs are beautiful. Also I think that it is vitally important to maintain captive populations of genetically pure, local specific, etc animals for conservation purposes. By the same token there are some outrageously beautiful morphs out there. I don' think anyone can walk past an albino honduran milk, or pieblad ballpython without being somewhat impressed by their visual appeal. There is a place for wolves, and foxes, but where would I be without my lab, or poodle, or labradoodle!? If we love our animals and care for them well, does it really matter if you prefer the pink one or the brown one? Not to me!

 

[geckoling]

Take a look at a more recent species...the crested gecko. I haven't see anyone offering "wild types" for sale recently...but their are plenty of flames running around. I will admit some flames are an aesthetic improvement in my eyes but it wouldn't be good if we forgot how the wild crested looks like.

Oedura castelnaui is also another one. Quite a few albinos but in this case the wild pattern is also nice so lots of wildtypes still persist. Personally I prefer the wild type in this case.

 

[ryanm]

Isn't there room for both?

Yes!

Also I think that it is vitally important to maintain captive populations of genetically pure, local specific, etc animals for conservation purposes.

This is where you are mistaken. Once they go into the pet trade, they cannot and should not be reintroduced to the wild. Conservation necessarily must be a seperate effort from hobbiest breeding. However, I do think it's a good thing that there are diverse interests in this hobby of ours, and that there are some who want freaky morphs and some who want pure locality specimens, because it means both will be available in the future. To me, the best situation would be where the majority of the animals in the pet trade come CBB from professional or hobbiest breeders, with occasional WC animals being brought in to suppliment the captive gene pool.

Conservation needs to take place in the animals own habitat, or if that habitat has been destroyed then in the habitat where you are trying to foster the growth of a population. But you shouldn't be misled to believe that your captive animals can or should be used in conservation in any way. The bottom line is, these animals are pets. There are, of course, exceptions. Extaordinary circumstances (such as the near extinction of a species, etc) may call for captive bred animals to be used in conservation efforts, but for the most part, the animals involved in conservation should not be used in breeding for the pet trade, and pets should not be used in conservation efforts.

ryanm

 

[Thug Child]

I personally do not like more than 3 new morphs of leos or cresteds.I personally think that having geckos that look the same as their wild cousins is much more appealing than having some freaky moonglow.I also think if people believe they can take care of an animal that should be in the wild(CB or not)and keep them in good health,it is up to them if they wish to make new patterns and morphs.No matter what kind of morph an african fat tail has,in the end it is still a fat-tail.maybe creating new morphs is not moral, but if herp owners choose to do so,it truely does not hurt anyone.Not to mention that new morphs and colours are simply to look at,it isn`t going to effect the gecko negatively or positively.Like zach said,it doesn`t matter if a gecko is red,white,purple or green as long as they get the maintenance,space and love they deserve.

 

[X-Geckos]

and what's about genetic problems from a strong imbreeding for create morphs?
i think an important thing about morphs selection is understand if working for many generations in strong imbreeding or line breeding will cause genetic problem attitude...

 

[Riverside Reptiles]

Many people that enjoy reptiles enjoy them because they are different from the average pet. And they take pride in owning something different. And morphs tend to take the "different pet" and make it even more so. It's human nature to seek out the unique.

Morphs are nothing new in this industry/hobby. The first amel. corn snakes were being bred in the early 1950's by Dr. Bechtel. Corn snakes to this day remain one of the most popular pet herps and certainly the most morphed. So to make it sound like this is some new turn in the hobby is just plain false.

As for whether it's right or wrong...good or bad...that's obviously a personal choice. And when it comes to choices like that, there's generally little or nothing one can say to change anothers mind.

 

[ryanm]

There does come a point where, ethically, you are responsible for the offspring you produce.

ryanm

 

[Protean]

If the animal resides in a cage, it is your responsibility to care for them. so regardless you are responsible for the animal.

But morphs occur naturally regardless if we are there or not. They just do not occur as frequently or in such large numbers. What happens when they are all morphed out.. prices drop but the demand is still there.

I personally am not a big morph fan, however, I am aware that there are a few thousand species of reptiles to know that i am not limited to twenty varieties of the same thing. Its more exciting to me to enjoy ten species that are different then to keep a rack of 10 morphs of one thing. keep in mind though, I go out of my way to find these different species rather than just jump on the band wagon for morphs.

BTW, when was the last group of WC leopard geckoes brought into the US. I would personally rather have a wild leopard than a CB leopard.

my penny shined and pocketed.
jason

 

[Brian]

I'd like some as well. :!:

 

[ryanm]

If the animal resides in a cage, it is your responsibility to care for them. so regardless you are responsible for the animal.

I meant beyond that, to breed responsibly and be responsible about who you are selling the offspring to.

ryanm

 

[kozmo]

If the animal resides in a cage, it is your responsibility to care for them. so regardless you are responsible for the animal.

I meant beyond that, to breed responsibly and be responsible about who you are selling the offspring to.

ryanm

You can't always control that, you just have to hope they go to the best home possible, people can tell you all they want that they will take care of it but once it is packed up and shipped off it is no longer in your hands, all you can do is hope that it ends up with a responsible hobbyist and that it wasn't an impulse buy. Although, I think local pet shops are more vulnerable to the impulse buy crowd, it seems most people that do online reptile purchasing for the most part have an idea of what they are doing.

 

[Protean]

Understood.

i have a thing about owning CB animals, after a few generations CB with a lot of the inbreedng going on, they are somewhat limited genetically. I also, using prefer purchasing F1 or P1 generations.

 

[ryanm]

Well, obviously you can't control everything that happens to them, what I meant was more along the lines of breeding responsibly and being prepared to keep or cull animals if it would be irresponsible to sell them to people who may end up breeding them later. Things like unknown or unrecognizable hybrids, carriers of harmful genetic mutations, etc. So, for example, don't make hybrids and then sell them to people who don't know the difference, because they may end up breeding them and selling the offspring as pure, and then you muddy the gen pool for everyone.

ryanm

 

[Brian]

I'm kind of working on putting things in pairs to end up with F1 as unrelated as possible. So I can keep F1 and basically have unrelated F1's and even F2's. I can switch the pairs up with each other to maxamize genetic unrelatedness for quite a while that way with probably less then 10 pairs. I'm trying this with G. luii.

I blame inbreeding in F1, F2, etc. on the harem system and peoples reluctance to keep extra males.

 

[Nathan Hall]

I haven't even looked at this post for many months.

This is where you are mistaken. Once they go into the pet trade, they cannot and should not be reintroduced to the wild. Conservation necessarily must be a seperate effort from hobbiest breeding. However, I do think it's a good thing that there are diverse interests in this hobby of ours, and that there are some who want freaky morphs and some who want pure locality specimens, because it means both will be available in the future. To me, the best situation would be where the majority of the animals in the pet trade come CBB from professional or hobbiest breeders, with occasional WC animals being brought in to suppliment the captive gene pool.

Conservation needs to take place in the animals own habitat, or if that habitat has been destroyed then in the habitat where you are trying to foster the growth of a population. But you shouldn't be misled to believe that your captive animals can or should be used in conservation in any way. The bottom line is, these animals are pets. There are, of course, exceptions. Extaordinary circumstances (such as the near extinction of a species, etc) may call for captive bred animals to be used in conservation efforts, but for the most part, the animals involved in conservation should not be used in breeding for the pet trade, and pets should not be used in conservation efforts.

Excellent post, Ryan. We are definitely on the same page.