Tricky one...

What species of Phelsuma lineata?

  • lineata lineata

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • lineata bombetokensis

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • lineata dorsivittata

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • lineata elanthana

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • lineata punctulata

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0
Status
Not open for further replies.

Haroldo

New member
I've had this lineata for some time now just as a pet. I know it's a lineata, but I'm not sure if its the nominate or subspecies--It has some characteristics that are confusing. In addition its femoral/preanal pores are not dark pitted like all of my males, so I need some other opinions on sex. Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.

P1010016-1.jpg

P1010021-1.jpg

P1010020.jpg

P1010019.jpg

P1010018.jpg
 

Palex134

New member
Haroldo said:
Found out the sex for sure today...caught her grasping an infertile egg :lol: .

I could have told you sex a while ago. You can clearly see an egg in her from the pics. I do not know which ssp. though, where did you get her? is she an import?
 

Haroldo

New member
Palex134 said:
Haroldo said:
Found out the sex for sure today...caught her grasping an infertile egg :lol: .

I could have told you sex a while ago. You can clearly see an egg in her from the pics. I do not know which ssp. though, where did you get her? is she an import?

Not as clear as you think Peter. I'm not 100% sure that's an egg you're looking at as some of my males have a similar appearance under their belly. Could be though...I bought her a few months back from a store I used to work with. Origin is unknown, but likely WC. She has been treated for parasites though as a preventive measure.
 

Palex134

New member
well you are probably right then, but thats exactly what i saw when my older female klemmeri was gravid, and then she laid 1 infertile egg. Good luck with her, hopefully you will find out which ssp she is.
 

Haroldo

New member
Palex134 said:
well you are probably right then, but thats exactly what i saw when my older female klemmeri was gravid, and then she laid 1 infertile egg. Good luck with her, hopefully you will find out which ssp she is.

Thanks...
 

Joe Farah

New member
I haven't a clue on that one, Haroldo...

While we're on the topic, could someone please define "subspecies" for me ?

I have a definition for "species" but subspecies just seem kind of randomly assigned... whats the criteria for something to have it's own subspecies status?
 

Palex134

New member
Joe Farah said:
I haven't a clue on that one, Haroldo...

While we're on the topic, could someone please define "subspecies" for me ?

I have a definition for "species" but subspecies just seem kind of randomly assigned... whats the criteria for something to have it's own subspecies status?


Grandis are a sub species are they not?
 

Joe Farah

New member
Try assigning subspecies to our species, Homo sapiens... see how far you get.

You'd have to force EVERYONE into imaginary groups and everyone would have to be all one or another. Everyone would have to be either this or that, just based on how we look, not taking into account most peoples mixed genetic heritage.

Its like putting a picture of myself up here and asking you guys to tell me what "race" I am. You'd have to pick Either "white", "black", latino, Asian, ect... but you could only pick one. In reality I am a diverse mix of all kinds of ethnicities, and to ask someone to assign me one and only one "race", just by looking at a picture of me, is quite rediculous.

How does this apply to the geckos?

When you force a subspecies name onto an animal of unknown origins, you are saying, "its either this or that". How do you know its not of mixed heritage? You are implying a sense of purity that may not even be there.

:shock:

Just my opinion (that eveyone dissagrees with)
 

Haroldo

New member
Joe has a point here about subspecies, but I don't agree wholeheartedly. Certain species are designated as subspecies namely because of two reasons: the person that discovered them designated them so and there is actually a close relation between them and other subspecies/nominate species. With that in mind, there is no way to say 100% that this is one pure subspecies, but other factors can be eliminated based on low probability. For example, based on size and pattern, lineata lineata and lineata punctulata can be eliminated at the onset. One would think that if this was a case of a hybrid, the animal would not look like a "textbook" example of a type--this is purely hypothetically, not to be confused with the case at hand. As such, if an animal closely resembles at least to some extent (considering variance) a species [or subspecies], then you might say that it is that type with some certainty. In some cases, subspecies/species are not in the same area and are unlikely to mate in the wild--as it is the case with some lineata. This is the only animal in my entire collection [phelsuma or otherwise] that does not have precise history. For example, I have lineage info for all my phelsuma and in some cases, the GPS information of where the original specimens were found. It is simply my opinion that the lineata species differs generally to such a degree, as to make identification usually simple and uncontroversial based on characteristics. I could have this gecko DNA'd and compared to "pure" ones to discern what exactly it is, but I think that is unnecessary. Just my opinion.
-Harold
 

Haroldo

New member
-Joe

I also think your human-race example doesn't function well as an analogy. First of all, you're assuming the ranges of the species/subspecies overlap--which is not always the case. Second, humans have a greater ability of mobility. That is, different "ethnicities" have the awesome ability to enter/exit the areas of other ones--making the possibility of "hybrids" more likely, than say an animal with environmental constraints. Further, there is a greater degree of complexity and shared characteristics in humans. For example, some facial charcterisitcs are universal in that anyone from any ethnicity can display it. I too have a misleading appearance--I look African American, but I am in-fact more "European" than pretty much anything. So I see your point, I just don't think the correlation is valid.
-Harold
 

Joe Farah

New member
This is one fun topic to discuss :mrgreen:

Ok, so back to the definition thing:

I could tell you how to determine if any 2 animals are the same species. I would say, "Well, those 2 Phelsuma are the same species if they can mate and produce FERTILE offspring". Its clearly defined.

Now when it comes to the subspecies I get stuck for criteria... If you were looking at any 2 given animals and you want to know if they are the same subspecies you would say, "Those 2 Phelsuma are the same subspecies if ______________________???" Someone fill in the blank there.
 

Joe Farah

New member
...And the human-race example IS valid. You're survey up at the top is no different than someone handing you an application for a job and asking you to put down your "race". Your options are White, African, Latino, Asian, Native American, ect... except that on a job application there is a category "other".
 

Joe Farah

New member
The taxonomy that we use in the plant and animal kingdom certainly applies to us too - unless you are a religious fanatic who doesnt accept that humans are animals...
Not that you are, Haroldo - just saying in general...
 

Haroldo

New member
As a mutual agreement has been reached, this thread is being locked now. Any noncontroversial correspondance will be introduced in a new thread. Thanks.
-Harold
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top