Phelsuma Lineata Elanthana

[Greenstar]

I am fairly positive the mystery lineata at my work is infact an elanthana, since it has mottling on it's hindlegs and similiar markings along it back onto it's tail. I am curious how rare/scarce these animals are in the US and how hard it will be to pair it up with a mate? I should have some pictures to add soon for confirmation on my ID.

Thanks
Danny

 

[Joe Farah]

Lets say it is actually a balanced mixture of all the different so called "subspecies", then what would you call it?

 

[Sgvreptiles]

Phelsuma lineata mutt

 

[Joe Farah]

Phelsuma lineata mutt

Thats funny dude!

Seriously though, Danny...

Im not trying to mess up your fun with trying to ID your gecko, but the truth is that you can't tell everything about an animal's genetic makeup just by looking at it. It may be that your lineata is 90% dorsivitta and only 10% elanthana, but displays mostly elanthana color and pattern...

So you'd look at it and say, "thats an elanthana", and you'd assign a sense of purity to that animal that isn't really there.

 

[Sgvreptiles]

i doubt their are any pure sub species.Im sure their all mixed in a little here alittle their.

 

[Greenstar]

The Only thing being that this is a WC individual, and elanathana has a distinct range seperate from the 3 other common subspecies, I see it as sorta difficult for it to be a mutt. Just out of curiousity how do you tell if an animal is 100% bombo, 100% lineata, or 100% dorsovittata, if you can't tell by just looking at it? I am not trying to start an arguement I am just curious.

Danny

 

[Joe Farah]

The subspecies thing is a joke

I mean, I understand the need to have a universally recognizeable name for all these animals, but if you ask me (and any biologist worth his/her salt), the latin nomenclature should stop at the species level. The "species" is the unit of life. The subspecies tries to label an animal as being "separate" from the main group. This leads to an underappreciation of how varied a species is.

When you think of all those lineata subspecies as being different geckos, you fail to recognize how much diversity there is within the species Phelsuma lineata.

 

[Joe Farah]

Just out of curiousity how do you tell if an animal is 100% bombo, 100% lineata, or 100% dorsovittata, if you can't tell by just looking at it?

- Sequence its DNA. Thats the only way. Then you have to compare it to known examples of "pure" ones, and see how closely related they are.

 

[Joe Farah]

Danny,

As far as I know, the subspecies of lineata are not really separated geographically from each other by any major boundries. I could be wrong, but these days it doesnt matter...

If grandis can be spread to hawaii and s. florida, why don't you think a lineata dorsivitatta could be transported a few miles to elanthana territory, thus introducing its genes to the populations there...

 

[mrow1109]

Nicely put Farah,i think if anyone had a different oppinion there it jsut cleared up a little bit, but greenster just for the curiosity of us all you should hook us up with some pictures of that guy

 

[Joe Farah]

Hey Danny, Im not trying to be confrontational at all. I just love challenging the way people think about this stuff.

Its something I like reading about and watching stuff on the discovery channel about and nerdy things like that.

But man, I really dont know shit....

 

[Greenstar]

Joe-

That wasn't confrontational, I was just curious and you have a valid point of view with solid evidence. You are right though there is no way too stop anyone group from moving to a different part of the island. Wether it be through movement of agriculture or logging it could easily and unintentionally end up outside of it's home range. However the specimen is very very different from the other lineata in the cage, varying in appereance, coloration and size from one another. I just have trouble calling them both the same species and would see it as easier to differantaite them in some way by using a subspieces name. I will take picture of both of them when I bring them home cause I am buying them once my shift is over. However a kind of off topic question, how do you guys treat mites? the both have some little red ones on them, not a heck of a lot but few. Also how harmful are the mites, i.e. will the eventual cause the animal death or just ditterate the quality of life?

Danny

 

[Sgvreptiles]

The little red mites are harmless.I dont remember what their called.But they dont reproduce,they just eat the dead skin and junk on the skin.So i think.if their the same mites.

 

[Joe Farah]

Im pretty sure you guys are talking about 2 totally different critters...

Kill the mites, Danny.

Use a cotton swab and apply some "Reptile Relief" or similar product directly to the mites. It may take a while for them to die and drop off. If that doesn't work you can do it gently by hand. Once you get rid of them they should stay gone.

 

[yuri]

subspecies

I am not sure that subspecies are just 'bunk'. My understanding is that subspecies do not need to be geographically isolated, but in fact can interbreed with other subspecies. It is more of a way to differentiate groups within a group (species).

The various Phelsuma lineata subspecies do have different locations where they are reliably found to share similarities, so an easy way to differentiate between these are to assign a subspecies. I have not read much about them and they may indeed have integrades - overlapping populations where the differences among subspecies become 'mixed'.

An analogy that might work is the various accents of the English language found within the US. You can understand people from all over the US, but at the same time, there are reliable differences that you can find regionally. People from Boston sound like they are from Boston whether you meet them on a trip to Texas or bump into them in Boston. You won't mix them up with someone from Wisconsin or from someone from North Carolina. They are all English speakers, but they have some differences that can be reliably spotted.

 

[Greenstar]

alright I picked up both of the day geckos, the one I thought was lineata lineata is definetly a bombo becasue the coloration and size difference. the bombo also laid a dud egg for me but still has one in her stomach so I will pray that it is a good one. I will get pictures of them ones they have settled in and colored up. But now that I am seeing the mystery gecko under 10k Power compacts I am wondering if it really is a lineata at all, are there any other small phelsuma, that are not quadioccelatus, laticauda, lineata or dubia that are currently coming in?

Thanks
Danny

 

[Joe Farah]

Im just gonna walk away from this one before I end up pissing someone off...

Good luck ID'ing your geckos Danny!

Feel free to PM me with questions

 

[Sgvreptiles]

Post pics,and hopefully we can help you out.If you need a male bombetokensis or want to get rid of the female let me know.I got a boy

 

[mrow1109]

hey dude i dont wanna be mean but if you want any help on getting some clear id from anyone your gonna have to post pictures, theres a small small chance that its not lineata but the chanes of it not being any of the other geckos posted like it being a P. antanosy or comorensis or modesta isakae is very very unlikely especially it being at a pet store.

But any ways hook us up with a picture so we can try and help you out, some lineata btw can get very high blue on the like quads.

 

[slygecko]

The subspecies thing is a joke

I mean, I understand the need to have a universally recognizeable name for all these animals, but if you ask me (and any biologist worth his/her salt), the latin nomenclature should stop at the species level. The "species" is the unit of life. The subspecies tries to label an animal as being "separate" from the main group. This leads to an underappreciation of how varied a species is.

When you think of all those lineata subspecies as being different geckos, you fail to recognize how much diversity there is within the species Phelsuma lineata.

Sorry to say I know very little about lineata identification or herp systematics, but I do have a thing or two to say about subspecies in general.

Nomenclature is phylogenetic. A family contains all related genera in one 'tree', a genus contains all the species on its branch on the tree, and a species all the individuals on a given twig, so to speak. So where do subspecies come in? This is the source of some debate in avian systematics.

The strongest argument to me is to keep subspecies phylogenetic as well. Within any species, there are portions of the population that are the beginnings of a new branching, or incipient species. These populations, in addition to morphological differences that originally caused them to be noted as subspecies, also have distinct genetic differences from the main species. Usually, there is still some gene flow with the main species, and they aren't totally different, so they are still incipient species rather than qualifying as full species (although there are still plenty of cases where it is hard to draw the line). These should be called subspecies. They represent a real familial lineage within the species.

So, where does the current taxonomy stand on this? Robert Zink, an avian systematist, published a little while ago his results of testing and a summary of other's work of a wide range of species. He found that birds on average have about 4 or 5 described subspecies, but genetics found an average of 1.9 phylogenetically distinct taxa within a bird species. This means, if you take the strict phylogenetic view of subspecies, that there are far too many described subspecies. The number should be reduced to just those that have genetic distinction.

What are the others? Zink and others make the argument that all the 'extra' subspecies are described merely on the basis of few, arbitrary characteristics such as one plumage trait or size. They represent variability rather than a true lineage.

I don't know whats going on with Phelsuma subspecies, but I thought I would post this view of the topic to let you guys know. This is one of the topics I hope to be able to study in grad school in another 3 semesters.

Cheers,
Nick