Whats up with Aussie Geckos?

[Starrynightexotics]

Just something I have always wondered about. Before I get into it, its all a matter of taste and Im not trying to offend anyone.

But my question boils down to this, how in the heck are the available Aussie animals commanding prices like that? 90% of the Aussie species in captivity are decidedly not rare in captivity or the wild, many dont exhibit alot in the way of behaviors, and most are about as attractive as the average gecko. So whats the deal? In fact, what gets me is that some of the highest end Aussie geckos Ive seen are extremely common in captivity. These things are everywhere, supply seems to exceed demand most times, but people still get away with charging exhorbitant prices?

Honestly, Im interested in alot of Aussie species, but I refuse to work with the majority simply because, in my opinion, who wants to pay that much for something everyone has, that doesnt exhibit a whole lot in the way of behavior other than "sit here and hope I dont get eaten", and for which there is no joy of discovery as their are "recipes" easily obtainable for the breeding/husbandry of said species? When it comes to the species I would snag up, its "well, you see how much the common cost syndrome".I have far rarer geckos, cooler (in my humble, crappy opinion, lol) in my collection youd never catch me charging prices like that.

So, is there a reason for the pricing other than the fact that Australia doesnt allow importing and the fact the US market is what it is for these animals? And is another reason the prices have stayed that way a result of the culmination of many people entering into this hobby to make a buck, and seeing these Aussie species as "where its at", and just not knowing any better? Thus further propagating this pricing whether it makes sense or not?

In my opinion it just makes no sense and borders on snake oil.

Chewbacca is a wookie.

 

[danscantle]

This is a common problem for a lot of us, Tom. I for one am fed up with the Australian gecko cartel. Most of the diplodactylid/ carphodactylid species in the market are decidely the among easiest of geckos to breed and rear (on par with Eublepharis) and most originated from questionable means. I recall being a teenager in Daytona when Saltuarius wyberba made their US debut. Most of them were infested with red mites. That, and the fact they were described in 1997, clearly calls their legality into quesiton. It doesn't take much poking around the net or some of the more senior members of this hobby to hear similar stories.

That being said, they are interesting animals. But in terms of pricing, they are inflated. Why charge several thousand for an animal that breeds well and can be kept in Spartan conditions? There are other species out there that require much more devotion and skill in keeping that, when they sell, are orders of magnitude less.

Anyway, this is coming from a guy who just added Hemidactylus mabouia and was excited to do so.

 

[Afelinus]

I agree.It has always been somewhat perplexing regarding price.I do find some of the geckos interesting,yet when you realize there is a limited gene pool,and a lot of the animals are related after a few years,it just doesn't seem to hold water as to the validity of prices staying that high,not even considering most are relatively fecund species.Well,I have my preference as most here know,but the only other gecko I would keep is an Aussie,but only because it looks like Felinus.Someday Carphodactylus Laevis.

 

[Starrynightexotics]

We all definitely have our own preferences, perhaps part of it is just the fact a majority of people are interested in Aussie species (making them the Justin Timberlakes of the gecko hobby ).

It kind of bothers me that two experienced, long standing members of the gecko community cant point out any rhyme or reason to this though. Im of the mind that every single species out there is worth keeping, they all have different aspects to their behavior and biology that theyve attained through developing and evolving over time in that unique habitat theyre found in. While I agree there should be price differences among different species for whatever reason (ranging from appearance to the lengths gone through to attain them), the whole this one is lead, this other one is a fine diamond type of disparity is mind boggling and does the greater number of species (about 1100+ outside of Australia unless Im mistaken) a great disservice... Ive always thought if our hobby was more about diversity rather than a myopic attention to small groups of animals within the greater body, wed all enjoy the experience even more and the market would be far healthier.

EDIT: on a side note, it really freaking sucks to have an awesomely cool species, and have to clear it out simply because the babies pile up and you cant give them away. I wish I was rich........

 

[Bowfinger]

Why are the people who started this boom getting out of Ausie geckos if they are getting asking dollar from a productive species. They are not, so they get out, sell off at what price they can get and leave the market upside down. A lot of unsuspecting buyers with hopes of making big bucks as well are trying to hold this market to re-coop losses. It worked for those savvy breeders with $ on their mind and you cant blame them, we have no stability in our market so those who can profit off of geckos even if doing damage in the process, will do so.

 

[Reptiluvr]

I think because of the limited gene pool the price should remain high. This I would hope will keep too many irresponsible breeders breeding closely related animals and ideally (not realistically) would keep a better awareness on which individual geckos get paired up to maintain quality and thus price. But appearance is part of that high price i believe. A spiky gecko is pretty freakin' cool.
I think one of the stranger things is how Sphaerodactylus are so uncommon in captivity, so prevalent in the wild and not any more prolific than most geckos, yet they draw tiny prices.

 

[Boo]

So how much are things like levis going for over there? If breeders start to drop prices surely everyone would have to match them in order to sell their animals? levis go for around $200 AUD here

 

[aquapimp]

:idea: Rather than suggesting that Aussies are priced too high, perhaps other species are underpriced.

 

[Geitje]

:idea: Rather than suggesting that Aussies are priced too high, perhaps other species are underpriced.

Well, maybe. However, small semi-tail-less $1000-2500 Nephrurus are really not much different than say a Teratoscincus with his tail busted off and a mutant regenerated tail. What's more, at least Teratoscincus has a very unique scalation, and verifiably more challenging to breed (a simple cause and effect of supply and demand).

Next, Phyllurus and Saltuarius $700-3000? What about Uroplatus, they have leaf-tails too;-)

If Carphodactylus laevis were to ever hit the soil here, what do you think they'd deserve? Hopefully, not much more than the harder to keep, much harder to breed and vaguely similar Paroedura masobe:biggrin:

I will not pick on any more Aussie geckos, cause they are cool, but they're not that cool.

Jon

 

[Palex134]

Great thread.

I agree, Carphodactylus Laevis would be awesome, but their price would be so astronomically high, not even worth it.

I agree with you Tom,
why are people paying 2000 for a gecko that isnt too rare in captivity anymore, as well as being abundant in the wild, when there are species that will not be exported any longer and are far less often kept, not to mention doing less then well in the wild, going for $10 on wholesale import lists?

 

[aquapimp]

I know I'd pay a pretty penny for the C. laevis.

Masobe should be worth their wait in gold (a personal favorite, so maybe I'm biased).:biggrin:

I'm sure forums such as this will enlighten other herpetoculturists that yes, there are tons of interesting, unique and bizarre species. Some that need and deserve attention.

Rather than "knock" species due to their geographic origin, I'm sure pics and tidbits of info about other (ie: not the Aussies) species will be a great way to introduce them to the public.:idea:


I 'm amazed that no one has hinted to the fact that the shady importers might be at fault for some of this "pricing discrepency". I mean, come on. $16.50 for a Teratoscincus? They can't even leave it at $17?:scratchhead:

Maybe the "answer" to all these questions is to simply stop selling geckos. We can just trade them (?).:coverlaugh:


BTW: I'd still keep every species I'm working with, even if I had to PAY to have the privilege to own them.

 

[Geitje]

Rather than "knock" species due to their geographic origin, I'm sure pics and tidbits of info about other (ie: not the Aussies) species will be a great way to introduce them to the public.:idea:

BTW: I'd still keep every species I'm working with, even if I had to PAY to have the privilege to own them.

Nobody is knocking Aussie geckos due to them coming from Australia. They're being debated as to why they command misplaced prices - not more. Indeed, there are interesting animals from there. But the facade of them being rare has worn away yet the prices remain high (I guess because few people are buying).

Your statement about paying to own them is true blue. We all do it in some way or fashion.

Jon

 

[Afelinus]

I think we all have paid something to enjoy the geckos we keep.Most times there are quite a few sacrifices involved.Back to the point at hand,Paroedura Masobe is a fine example of a gecko that needs more of our attention.If my OCD wasn't so bad:evil:,and I wouldn't end up trying to collect every species of Paroedura,I would be working with them.They have some of those same similar physical qualities of the Carphos and the Felinus.The point being made,and would be driven home by those two geckos just mentioned,Masobe were being had for under 100.00,while you would have to smoking something good to believe you could find Carphos for that price.:biggrin:It's easier working with monotypic genuses,only one species to collect,just a lot of Localities.

 

[Palex134]

I think we all have paid something to enjoy the geckos we keep.Most times there are quite a few sacrifices involved.Back to the point at hand,Paroedura Masobe is a fine example of a gecko that needs more of our attention.If my OCD wasn't so bad:evil:,and I wouldn't end up trying to collect every species of Paroedura,I would be working with them.They have some of those same similar physical qualities of the Carphos and the Felinus.The point being made,and would be driven home by those two geckos just mentioned,Masobe were being had for under 100.00,while you would have to smoking something good to believe you could find Carphos for that price.:biggrin:It's easier working with monotypic genuses,only one species to collect,just a lot of Localities.

I wish I had taken advantage of them when they were under 100.00. Thats just another lesson learned, taking advantage of incredible species while they are available and cheap, because soon they wont be so common and obtainable.

 

[Afelinus]

Peter,I don't think there isn't a one of us who feels exactly as you stated.I think we will see a lot of things go by the wayside.

 

[Palex134]

Peter,I don't think there isn't a one of us who feels exactly as you stated.I think we will see a lot of things go by the wayside.

Ya, I regret not holding on to more Geckolepis, as like many others, I do believe Madagascar will eventually close, and we will be left with just a bunch of Uroplatus phantasticus

 

[Bowfinger]

I think the high prices by designers and Ausie geckos have overshadowed the other geckos not only by demand and their looks but also by marketing set to not only get highest dollar but also to be the diamonds of the gecko world. Those rare and very difficult Mosabes are in reality a much more valuable gecko than most Ausie or designer geckos if you take in all factors. I think Australian geckos hit a "hot" period due to marketing, TV and lack of this from other locals to compete with in interest, but it shows to be getting stale. Since it overshadows just as interesting geckos that sell for more realistic prices, people stand against the issue, and its not jelousy.
I had 10-15 years ago, either purchased or was offered these prices (for fun to see price changes over the years)...
Rankins Dragons $50ea.
Pinecone Skinks $300ea.
Australian fat-tail geckos (Diplo) $25ea.
Uroplatus fimbriatus $300
P. mosabe $700 at first / $75 for half deads / now priceless
U. phantasticus $35-175
U. malama(labeled wrong as phantasticus) $50
Cataphractus /Armadillo Lizards $35
Chillian Chuckwallas $40 (awesome!)
Blue Tegus $75
Monkey Tail Skinks $35
Parsons Chaneleons (I am crying right now)

 

[Starrynightexotics]

Interesting points all, and to reiterate, noones saying keeping them is a bad thing, what there seems to be no real reason for is the pricing on these animals.

Robert, interesting points about the genetic issues with these animals. Not to be overly critical but in my mind that is a factor that should lower the price on them... its like manufacturing hammers and saving the ones with flawed handles to sell at a higher price to "qualified" carpenters who know how to work around such issues. Granted, that analogy is like comparing hammers to geckos, heh. That said, I do see your point about the fact they should only be going to individuals willing to do the extra work and research to keep the bloodlines as pure as possible, I fail to see how a higher pricetag would attract that type of individual however (another interesting point, after all these years of no new blood, is this even possible or are they all just a mish mash of 20 year old genetics stemming from a handful of animals?)

The marketing aspect is very valid in my mind, unfortunately it reminds me of fast food... Buy unhealthy greasebomb A, over unhealthy greasebomb B.. its the Jewel of the unhealthy greasebomb world!

Dah dah dah dah daaaaahhh.. Im loving it! (which is an anagaram for "ailing vomit" btw)

 

[kanopy]

Well not all aussie geckos are so expensive, you can find the most common Dipodactylus (vittatus,damaeus,stenodactylus) from 80 to 150€ for unsexed specimens but maybe it's still too high for some of you.You can also find unsexed N.l.levis for 200US dollars, somewhat similar to R.chahoua. Well the price given to a species is something quite subjective but always related to offer and demand (the difficulty to breed a species will be a component that will play on the ratio offer/demand).
For exemple the rarer Diplodactus/Strophurus are quite expensive, but the breeders have no problem to sell them at the price they think right (that others will maybe claim is a steal).
The price just follow the balance demand/offer; if there are no demand you can't hardly advertise a gecko at an expensive price, if the demand decreases, you will have to decrease your price or you won't sell your animals. An exemple for that is with N.w.cinctus whose prolificity make the available specimens more numerous than the buyers are interested in.
Another species, quite similar is N.amyae. Nevertheless I have always had most of my offspings booked before they hatch. The demand for them has already been high and the hatchlings have not surpassed this last years the demand. Time will tell if that will last...
About the rarer smooth knob tail N.laevissimus and N.stellatus, I'm pretty confident they will remain expensive for quite a long time (Jon, I bet that in 2 or 3 years they will still be more expensive that most Terato). Those are kept only by a small number of breeders (counted on the number of one hand I believe in Europe) and most of them know how delicate they can be.
I clearly understand some are harassed by the prices of some aussie geckos and for sure some species you keep are rarer than even the rarer Nephrurus species and their price has nothing to compare, but as most of agree this not related.
Something also I have been surprised to hear is that in Australia the Nephrurus are alo not so cheap (even if not the same prices as outside) how much cost Nephrurus asper in au? how much would cost N.w.cinctus? more I believe than outside now.
At least, from time to time, wc specimens are found all over the world each year, always in small quantities, but enough to add bloodlines to those that are interested to keep strong animals, and that even with the most common species found in captivity.
To conclude, maybe the price is (found) too high for some species but if so, the ratio offer/demand will just readjust it
Fred

 

[Starrynightexotics]

Informative post but not the answers Id hoped for when I started this thread. Youre points are valid about all the species you have listed but Im just not seeing any cold hard reasons these animals are so expensive other than the fact theyve been "marketed", and now it's all just "the market". Its strange that the rules of this "market" only extend to certain species. There are many spikey geckos out there, there are many colorful geckos, many leaf tailed geckos, velvety geckos from all continents, animals coming through importers hands that are far rarer, yet because of the accent these other species are really worth this much more?

Dont get me wrong, most of my animals sell fairly well being the luxury expense they fall under, but Ive become more and more selective with what Ill deal with.... what has always gotten under my skin is the fact that Ive had to move out species like Gekko monarchus, C. quadrivirgatus, H. frenatus, H. tanganicus, H. garnoti, P. kuhli, T. steudneri, P. androyensis, just because you could barely give the babies away. Active, hardy, visually interesting, behaviorally "there", yet $5 is all theyre worth?