URGENT HELP! shaking flying gecko

[Duracellsim]

hi evryone,

getting some behaviours i haven't seen before in my breeding female flying Gecko. can anyone explain why she would be shaking, its not like breeding behaviours, its more like a muscle spasum?! toes and legs are twitching and she's falling over when the spasums get bad.
only noticed it this evening but concerned for health and welfare,

please advise asap.

thank you,

simon and carley

 

[Heppy]

Sounds like a calcium crash, need to get some extra calcium in her ASAP. All my previous experiences with this behaviour has been fatal. you can try syringing zocal d, which is available from most pet shops. Try contacting a local reptile vet but chances are they'l just syringe zocal d so no point stressing it out unless they have a better form of treatment.

 

[Palor]

MBD symptoms alright. Try feeding high calcium foods phoenix worms and silkworms, and adding a UVB light. Leave a dish of pure calcium in the tank for her. A vet trip can't hurt either.

 

[Duracellsim]

help please

My female flying gecko has now dropped her tail any advice? the male is showing no signs of any illness this is weird.

 

[MauricesExoticPets]

My female flying gecko has now dropped her tail any advice? the male is showing no signs of any illness this is weird.

Enviromental stress is often a problem, if you are keeping the pair together I would advise that you move the male out of the enclosure as soon as possible (now).

At this point dietary alterations alone are not likely going to fix the problems your gecko is experiencing, but are never the less they are going to be required.

Your husbandry must also be looked at, temps, humidity, UVB, light cycle, and general enclosure design are all potential areas that if not kept within the geckos range of needs will induce high levels of stress.

One can only assume from your description that your female is at the end of her calcium storage rope, by that I mean that she has been using bone calcium to keep going and has not had the proper care required to replace what has been lost due to egg laying. The shaking you describe is likely due to low blood calcium levels.

Males are much less prone to these problems because they simply do not lay eggs and remove calcium from their body at the same rate. This may be why your male is not in the same situation as the female. I don't see this as weird at all.

Particular attention to correcting the Ca ratio in your feeder insects is one way to begin feeding the geckos properly. Strive for a 1.5 to 2:1 ratio with the total calcium content in the area of 0.7+/-0.1%.

The tail drop issue would resolve itself if your female were in good health, in her less than perfect state this may well be the death bell ringing for her though. Just keep the enclosure she resides in clean and concentrate on getting her properly fed.

If you have a very good reptile vet available to you you might consider bringing the gecko to him or her, but do not go expecting great things. Your gecko sounds as if it is very far into what is known as metabolic bone disease (MBD) which is in fact a whole list of problems under one name mostly for the sake of simplicity.

Maurice Pudlo

 

[viktor]

This is a tricky situation. With other species, I would recommend force feeding liquid calcium. However, flying geckos really hate being handled and it would most likely cause stress-related death. Consider adding liquid calcium into a sprayer bottle and spray the sides of the tank. If she is still drinking, she will lap up the calcium.

What kind of calcium supplement are you using? Consider switching from that ground up limestone crap to Jarrow's BoneUp.

Either way, I fear the prognosis is not good. I hope she pulls through.

 

[Duracellsim]

Flying (Gecko) recovery

OK so took her to the vets who gave her a calcuim shot, she now seems to be recovering and the vet also said she was in good health (apart from the loss of tail and shacking(which has now gone away)), the problem was as it is her first year of laying eggs, she had basically put all her calcium in to the eggs and ran herself very low since the first signs we have been feeding her more calcium daily and she has now started to perk up and looks very happy at thesight of her new first born she seems to off perked up at the sight of her first baby. who is now in a tub inside the tank and eating heathily.

Thank you for all your help

Simon.

 

[MauricesExoticPets]

This is a tricky situation. With other species, I would recommend force feeding liquid calcium. However, flying geckos really hate being handled and it would most likely cause stress-related death. Consider adding liquid calcium into a sprayer bottle and spray the sides of the tank. If she is still drinking, she will lap up the calcium.

What kind of calcium supplement are you using? Consider switching from that ground up limestone crap to Jarrow's BoneUp.

Either way, I fear the prognosis is not good. I hope she pulls through.

Jarrow's Bone Up

Ingredients: Serving Size 6 Capsules Total: 240 caps per bottle

Microcrystalline Hydroxyapatite (MCHA) 4762 mg
Calcium (from MCHA) 1000 mg
Phosphorus (from MCHA ) 510 mg
Protein (from MCHA) 1514 mg
Magnesium (from Oxide) 600 mg
Zinc (as Monomethionine) 10 mg
Manganese (from Citrate) 5 mg
Copper (from Citrate) 1 mg
Boron (as sodium borate) 3 mg
Vitamin C (Ascorbic Acid) 200 mg
Vitamin D3 (Cholecalciferol) 400 IU
Vitamin B1 (Thiamin HCI) 5 mg
Vitamin K1 (Phylloquinone) 100 mcg
Glucosamine HCI 300 mg
Other ingredients: Magnesium stearate and silicon dioxide. Mineral amounts are elemental. Capsule consists of gelatin. Contains no common allergens.

I'll go with you on this one (used to dust feeders or dish fed) if the feeder insects are also gutloaded to correct their Ca ratio, but if they are not, then this is not a good product to use for reptiles.

The Ca ratio of this product is 1.96:1 and contains only 20% calcium, not bad in and of itself but without correcting the insects Ca ratio it will not get the job done.

I use zoo med repti calcium which contains D3 mixed with the zoo med repti calcium without D3 in even portions which both combined contain in the relm of 40% calcium and zero phosphorous in my gutloading formulas (20% by weight). This corrects feeder Ca ratios in as little as 18 hours.

I use a custom blend of vitamins to make a dish feed powder that has a 2:1 Ca ratio, and is likely a bit more expensive than the Jarrow's Bone Up you have suggested.

I'm not so sure about the boron content, but I'm willing to make a go at seeing if this stuff will work as well as my own mix.

Maurice Pudlo

 

[viktor]

Jarrow's Bone Up

Ingredients: Serving Size 6 Capsules Total: 240 caps per bottle

Microcrystalline Hydroxyapatite (MCHA) 4762 mg
Calcium (from MCHA) 1000 mg
Phosphorus (from MCHA ) 510 mg
Protein (from MCHA) 1514 mg
Magnesium (from Oxide) 600 mg
Zinc (as Monomethionine) 10 mg
Manganese (from Citrate) 5 mg
Copper (from Citrate) 1 mg
Boron (as sodium borate) 3 mg
Vitamin C (Ascorbic Acid) 200 mg
Vitamin D3 (Cholecalciferol) 400 IU
Vitamin B1 (Thiamin HCI) 5 mg
Vitamin K1 (Phylloquinone) 100 mcg
Glucosamine HCI 300 mg
Other ingredients: Magnesium stearate and silicon dioxide. Mineral amounts are elemental. Capsule consists of gelatin. Contains no common allergens.

I'll go with you on this one (used to dust feeders or dish fed) if the feeder insects are also gutloaded to correct their Ca ratio, but if they are not, then this is not a good product to use for reptiles.

The Ca ratio of this product is 1.96:1 and contains only 20% calcium, not bad in and of itself but without correcting the insects Ca ratio it will not get the job done.

I use zoo med repti calcium which contains D3 mixed with the zoo med repti calcium without D3 in even portions which both combined contain in the relm of 40% calcium and zero phosphorous in my gutloading formulas (20% by weight). This corrects feeder Ca ratios in as little as 18 hours.

I use a custom blend of vitamins to make a dish feed powder that has a 2:1 Ca ratio, and is likely a bit more expensive than the Jarrow's Bone Up you have suggested.

I'm not so sure about the boron content, but I'm willing to make a go at seeing if this stuff will work as well as my own mix.

Maurice Pudlo

Of course gut loading is important, I was referring to this product for dusting.
2:1 Ca is the correct ratio, and I would like to see what the actual ratio is when you dust a calcium deficient cricket. In other words, how many mg of calcium are in an average cricket and how many mg of calcium are you adding by dusting the cricket? And how long does the dust stay on the cricket if the cricket is not eaten right away? These days, I spray my feeders with liquid calcium and vitamins, let them dry a bit, and then dust them. I know the liquid stuff will stay on them till they molt, so I see that as a backup.

What I like about the Jarrow's BoneUp is that it is designed for maximum calcium assimilation in humans. The calcium metabolism does not differ much in other vertebrates (if I am wrong in this, someone correct me please, but I think it's true). There is more to this than the Ca ratio. You also have to have the correct Ca:Mg ratio, which is something like 10:4, and crickets are woefully low in Mg. Then you have to make sure the Ca is assimilated. For this you need, of course, D3. However, this product also includes vitamin K, which also plays an important role in Ca assimilation. Finally, the Ca in this product is the form found in animal bones. This is how humans traditionally got their calcium, from soups cooked with bones. While the issue of what form of calcium is most easily absorbed is not settled, most agree that calcium carbonate is the least absorbable. It also binds more acid, meaning it slows down the whole digestion process. It is in fact an antacid. So saying this product only has 20% calcium is misleading, because while CaCO3 has more elemental calcium, less will be absorbed.

 

[MauricesExoticPets]

You are correct that other elements are required in the whole bone formation equation and in regulating blood calcium levels I might add.

I have no idea where you located the 10:4 (2.5:1) Ca:Mg ratio.

My information places 3-4:1 Ca:Mg as the establisted human DRI with the UL as 6-7:1 Ca:Mg.

I feed crickets to critters in my collection, only after they are properly gutloaded which adjusts their Ca ratio to an acceptable level. I only dust them when they are being fed to gravid or breeding females as an effort to increase the calcium intake, the dust I use is a mixture containing 2:1 Ca plus a large number of other components that mimic as close as is possible the known or at least suspected dietary requirements of reptiles.

If you are interested in the nutritional content of the dust I use I will be more than happy to start a post regarding exactly that in the feeder and nutrition forum.

There are many many factors involved in reptile nutrition including the very basics such as proper seasonal temps, humidity, light cycle, and a environmental stress level that is no higher than is tolerable for the species in question.

Without getting to far off topic, the main factor in gravid or breeding female reptiles is a slightly elevated calcium intake.

Gutloading insects with a diet containing 20% calcium carbonate is effective if done regularly and for at least 18 hours prior to feeding off the insects.

Dusting with a product containing a 2:1 Ca ratio will elevate the calcium intake slightly, more so if many smaller feeders are provided than if just a few larger ones because of the increased surface area many smaller insects have over that of a few larger ones.

Consider 55% of the gutload as a vehicle for other vitamins and minerals the remaining 25% as fluid content and you are doing the right thing for your reptile.

A qualified vet can perform blood work to determine what if any vitamin and minerals should be added to your gutload based on what he or she finds.

Some additional factors now come into play, health (current and past) will become a modifier to what will and will not work for your particular critter. You will never know unless you have detailed bloodwork done and done on a fairly regular basis.

For the more practical minded we try to establish a workable system of feeding our insects that covers the bases of both calcium and phosphorous first, then provide a good mixture of other elements in a logical manner. We all cannot afford to have expensive bloodwork done regularly enough to nail down exactly what this one particular reptiles dietary needs are at this particular age and status of health.

While I fully respect your looking to humans as your model for dietary requirements it is now understood that reptiles dietary requirements are closer to that of birds.

I strive for the following contents in my feeder insects, via gutloading, feeder insect selection and/or dusting; these figures only regard the vitamins and minerals you mentioned:
Ca (%) 0.7+/-0.1 (1.0+/-0.1)*
P (%) 0.35+/-0.05 (0.5+/-0.05)*
Mg (mg/kg) 500+/-100
Vit D (IU) 200 per kg
Vit K (mg/kg) 0.5
* indicates breeding or gravid female goals.

For the record I have found calcium carbonate (precipitated calcium carbonate) to have a perfectly acceptable assimilation rate when measured on a per volume of intake. This was measured against several other forms of calcium in my reptiles (mourning geckos to my now breeding nile monitors).

Maurice Pudlo

 

[viktor]

You are correct that other elements are required in the whole bone formation equation and in regulating blood calcium levels I might add.

I have no idea where you located the 10:4 (2.5:1) Ca:Mg ratio.

My information places 3-4:1 Ca:Mg as the establisted human DRI with the UL as 6-7:1 Ca:Mg.

The information I am finding has a DRI of 2:1 Ca:Mg. See, for example, this link:
The Miracle of Magnesium by Carolyn Dean, M.D., N.D.

I feed crickets to critters in my collection, only after they are properly gutloaded which adjusts their Ca ratio to an acceptable level. I only dust them when they are being fed to gravid or breeding females as an effort to increase the calcium intake, the dust I use is a mixture containing 2:1 Ca plus a large number of other components that mimic as close as is possible the known or at least suspected dietary requirements of reptiles.

If you are interested in the nutritional content of the dust I use I will be more than happy to start a post regarding exactly that in the feeder and nutrition forum.

Yes, I would love to hear about your powder. I think you can do it in this thread, I hope nobody would mind that.

While I fully respect your looking to humans as your model for dietary requirements it is now understood that reptiles dietary requirements are closer to that of birds.

I wouldn't, obviously, look at humans for all reptile metabolic needs. I was referring to calcium use. Do birds have different calcium metabolic pathways?
If so, then I agree that would be a closer match. I would love details about how reptiles assimilate calcium differently from humans.

For the record I have found calcium carbonate (precipitated calcium carbonate) to have a perfectly acceptable assimilation rate when measured on a per volume of intake. This was measured against several other forms of calcium in my reptiles (mourning geckos to my now breeding nile monitors).
Maurice Pudlo

I know it is adequate if done right. I am just wondering if it's the best form. I guess a lot of geckos get much of their calcium from eating snails, and snail shells contain calcium carbonate crystals. So perhaps it does not matter. The gutload I use has CaCO3, the spray has calcium citrate, and the BoneUp has the hydroxyapatite. I am hoping that should do it!

 

[MauricesExoticPets]

It should first be made clear to the reader that our conversation is dipping into a subject that is under researched in the scientific community as of this writing.

I will try to bolster every statement with links to full documentation but due to financial constraints some documentation will be in extract form and may not fully explain my position. I will avoid these situations as best I can for the betterment of the readers full understanding.

That being said I will address your comments in what I feel is the most accurate way possible for me to do considering the knowledge I have collected over time and use on a regular basis with my own reptiles.

I will, as best I can, where I have found research that shows differing opinions on a particular point of interest demonstrate why I selected one over the other. There are times when I initially pick one over the other because I just feel it will work out, it doesn't always and in that event I alter my methods (I do try to base any alterations on pier reviewed material when such material exists).

I am a nit picking detail oriented type of person, please do not take my reply or the way I form it as a personal attack, which is not my goal at all.

I am not a scientist, research tech, lab employee, or highly funded corporation. I could care less about product placement or a particular company’s status in this trade.

If you have any doubt about what I say, please talk with your vet about developing a proper diet for your particular pet and its current situation.

Now let’s get on with it,
Maurice Pudlo

 

[viktor]

It should first be made clear to the reader that our conversation is dipping into a subject that is under researched in the scientific community as of this writing.

I will try to bolster every statement with links to full documentation but due to financial constraints some documentation will be in extract form and may not fully explain my position. I will avoid these situations as best I can for the betterment of the readers full understanding.

That being said I will address your comments in what I feel is the most accurate way possible for me to do considering the knowledge I have collected over time and use on a regular basis with my own reptiles.

I will, as best I can, where I have found research that shows differing opinions on a particular point of interest demonstrate why I selected one over the other. There are times when I initially pick one over the other because I just feel it will work out, it doesn't always and in that event I alter my methods (I do try to base any alterations on pier reviewed material when such material exists).

I am a nit picking detail oriented type of person, please do not take my reply or the way I form it as a personal attack, which is not my goal at all.

I am not a scientist, research tech, lab employee, or highly funded corporation. I could care less about product placement or a particular company’s status in this trade.

If you have any doubt about what I say, please talk with your vet about developing a proper diet for your particular pet and its current situation.

Now let’s get on with it,
Maurice Pudlo

Maurice,

Please don't worry about offending me or making me feel like I am under attack. We are engaging in a discussion that hopefully benefits both of us and that we both learn from. Otherwise, why do it? Arguing for argument's sake, to make me feel better than someone else, or to prove someone else wrong - all these things are abhorrent to me. I like putting my ideas out there so other can either learn from them or poke holes in them. In that regard, I appreciate your comments

 

[MauricesExoticPets]

The powder I use to dust my insects has the following nutritional value; I calculate the nutritional value based on ingredient values found on the product labels or where that information is not available from the USDA nutrient database.

Kcal/kg
2900

Protein (%)
15±3​

Arginine (%)
0.83±0.17

Glycine (%)
0.58±0.12​

Serine (%)
0.58±0.12

Histidine (%)
0.21±0.05​

Isoleucine (%)
0.5±0.1

Leucine (%)
0.83±0.17​

Lysine (%)
0.63±0.2

Methionine + cystine (%)
0.5±0.1​

Methionine (%)
0.25±0.05

Phenylalanine + tyrosine (%)
0.83±0.17​

Phenylalanine (%)
0.45±0.09

Threonine (%)
0.54±0.1​

Tryptophan (%)
0.14±0.03

Valine (%)
0.51±0.1​

Linoleic acid (%)
1.00

Calcium (%)
0.7±0.1​

Phosphorous (%)
0.35±0.05

Sodium (%)
0.15​

Chlorine (%)
0.13±0.02

Magnesium (mg/kg)
500±100​

Manganese (mg/kg)
40±20

Zinc (mg/kg)
36±4​

Iron (mg/kg)
66±14

Copper (mg/kg)
6±2​

Iodine (mg/kg)
0.35

Selenium (mg/kg)
0.11±0.04​

Vitamin A (IU)
1500

Vitamin D3 (IU)
200​

Vitamin E (IU)
6±4

Vitamin K (mg/kg)
0.5​

Riboflavin (mg/kg)
2.4±1.2

Pantothenic acid (mg/kg)
10.0​

Niacin (mg/kg)
16±11

Vitamin B12 (mg/kg)
0.005±0.004​

Choline (mg/kg)
900±400

Folicin (mg/kg)
0.35±20​

Thiamin (mg/kg)
1.4±0.4

Pyridoxine (mg/kg)
3.0​

The exact route I use to get to these values differs based on product availability and cost at the time I make ingredient purchases.

I try to locate products that are as close as possible to the above nutrient profile then build up where required to the ranges indicated.

I use a 100g/0.01 digital scale to measure ingredients. I am aware that due to product variables and the limited accuracy of this scale that at times I may go outside of the ranges I wish to achieve but at the moment this is the best scale I own.

In every case I use a ball mill to reduce particle size to that which will pass through a 200x200 stainless steel wire mesh screen. The resulting dust is then used as you would any reptile related dust (shake and bake style).

I use this on fully gut loaded insects prior to feeding and consider it a maintenance formula not a recovery formula. Modifications to the nutritional content are done on the advice of my veterinarian.

It is also used without regard for the type of feeder insect being dusted.

In some cases this will slightly modify a particular set of nutrient value ratios, it will for example lower the ultimate vitamin A content as a ratio to any other nutrient, and elevate the calcium content as a ratio to any other nutrient of a cricket.

I do not find reason for concern here mainly because I feed a variety of insects with differing base nutritional values which are fed a high calcium diet to adjust their Ca ratio to a positive Ca figure.

The main purpose of this formula is to fill in any nutritional blanks.

I use this same formula for reptiles that will take dust via dish feeding.

It is fully understood that insects will clean themselves of any dust, including my formulation in a matter of time. I try to side step this problem by feeding smaller quantities of insects at intervals throughout the reptiles’ activity period.

This allows my reptiles to quickly consume that portion of their daily ration and limits the time the insects have to remove any dust.

Additionally it should be noted that calcium carbonate given at intervals is better absorbed than when given at a single meal in large dosages.

The nutrient composition of this formulation is (in my opinion at least) nutritionally complete, so even if there is only a slight bit remaining it is doing its job on gut loaded insects.

Maurice Pudlo

 

[braNikto]

female ptychozoon shaking and dying

hi evryone,
getting some behaviours i haven't seen before in my breeding female flying Gecko. can anyone explain why she would be shaking, its not like breeding behaviours, its more like a muscle spasum?! toes and legs are twitching and she's falling over when the spasums get bad.
only noticed it this evening but concerned for health and welfare,

hello, unfortunately my female ptychozoon has the same symptoms. I got it 10 days ago, brought it home and put into terrarium. She never eated anything, at least I have not seen it, although I was putting small crickets to her constatnly. After 10 days, she suddenly lost color, turned very dark. She can not control her body, legs are shaking without control and thus can not move. When she raises her leg to walk, it starts to shake and can not make a step. Also from time to time, the whole body is extremely shaking. She is not able to hold anymore on the tree trunk and is falling down. This is for the last 24 hours.

Probably is calcium problem, but how should I deliver her calcium, when she does not eat crickets ?

Also I have seen from the very beginning, always in night, she was scratching her right side of face on trees or ground. I thought it was normal behaviour, but obviously it is not. It looked liked it was itchy or sth like this and she was trying to scracth herself to get rid of something. Yesterday I have discovered, that her right eye is much bigger than the left, it is clear, but it is bloated and almost twice bigger than the left eye. I was thinking maybe she was blind and thus can not see crickets and does not eat. Even when I put crickets right in front of her mouth, she did not eat. (How do you realize whether your gecko is one eye blind ?)

Does anyone have experience with this disease ? (I think she is going to die, but ptychozoon are so cute, I must get another, but I want to avoid doing this mistake)

Also my ptychozoon had few red mites, which I decided to handle with a little bit of anti-mite spray used for pets. I hope this did not kill the gecko.

Anyone has an advice ?

 

[Holly12]

Calcium is a very important to give to your gecko amke sure they have enough if it cuz MBD will happen and like palor said keeping a dish of clcium powder in the cage at all times and sence your gecko is not nocturnal they should also have a UVB light on them Iam so glad that she is doing okay you got her to the vet just in time.

 

[MauricesExoticPets]

How did you apply the anti mite treatment?

Maurice Pudlo

 

[braNikto]

I have sprayed a little bit of cat's anti-mite spray on legs and tails of the gecco. could this kill him ?