Calcium with Vit D3; Too much vs Too little

[Scarlet.Escapist]

Hello fellow forum members,

I would like to ask for the sake of compiling correct supplementing information and to satisfy my curious self or others ...

How often do you dust food items with Calcium with vit D3?

On the several forums I frequent (mostly Rhac related), dusting prey items or fruit mixtures with Calcium + D3 is part of a regular supplementation routine. Meaning usually all food items are dusted with Ca+ D3 except on those occasions where vitamins are used. The pure Ca is only provided via dish/bottle cap to breeding or calcium deficient geckos.

Now I can assume that different species will require different amounts of Ca:vitD3 in their diets...Is there anyway to find out/determine what each species (or for the sake of simplicity the more popular species) of geckos needs in terms of calcium:vitD3 in their diet?

Also, from what I have read from past threads...Vit D3 overdose can be an issue if the diet is supplemented too much with Ca+D3 and Vitamins. I can recall something like reverse MBD happening as a result from such overdose...does any one have more detailed info to offer on this matter?

And I apologize, if there was a previous thread on such matters:blushing:. I did leaf through some of the threads the search function pulled up, but dare I say I haven't yet found one involving mainly these questions.

Thanks in advance for taking the time to read/share your knowledge!:biggrin:

 

[JordanAng420]

I will probably be the only one to say that I believe D3 is way too underrated. I dust with it at every feeding except when vitamins are being used. I even put the calcium with D3 in the tanks as well. I deal with leopard geckos, and i'm not sure what species you are referring to, but I have NEVER, and neither have any of the veterinarians i've worked for or talked to, treated a reptile that has OVERDOSED on D3?

Can anyone provide an experiance to challenge this? ANY experiances with lizards that were treated or were sick with a D3 overdose? I've been asking everywhere for 2 years, and I haven't got an answer. Yet I keep hearing that "too much D3 can be toxic and they can overdose".

IMHO, the animals are capable of regulating the amount of D3 that is taken into their bodies. It all has to do with the calcium : phosphorus ratio of the supplement...most of the supplements we use for reptiles, the animals would literally have to GORGE themselves with it to even bring their levels above normal. I'm sure i'm going to get ripped to pieces by all you guys, but I really could care less.

 

[viktor]

I dust everytime, without exception, using both calcium and D3. Never had any overdose issues. I feel I am lucky if the dust stays on the insects before they are consumed.

Actually, I use liquid supplements first, wait for that to dry, and then dust. That way, if the insects do not get consumed, the spray stays on the insects until they molt.

 

[kruler]

I think this heavily depends on the species. Diurnal species like phelsuma who spend much time basking in the sun naturally take in more D3 than a nocturnal animal. If you compare products, there is also a big difference in Vit D3 content. Allen Repashy makes calcium with 4 levels of varying D3 from none to high. Even his high D3 version only contains 25% of the D3 in RepCal calcium plus. When asked why this was, Allen's reply (which I cannot post) suggested that there ARE toxic levels of D3 and he feels his products are designed with that in mind, while others on the market are not.

 

[JordanAng420]

When asked why this was, Allen's reply (which I cannot post) suggested that there ARE toxic levels of D3 and he feels his products are designed with that in mind, while others on the market are not.

Of course he's going to say that! He wants to sell his product!

I'm going to stay away from this. I'm going to end up getting myself in trouble.

 

[viktor]

Of course he's going to say that! He wants to sell his product!

I'm going to stay away from this. I'm going to end up getting myself in trouble.

Can anyone provide links to any papers that either report D3 levels in diurnal vs. nocturnal reptiles, or that demonstrate D3 toxicity? I would love to see some scientific evidence one way or the other.

How do nocturnal reptiles that do not bask obtain D3? Is their rate of conversion of cholecalciferol (D3) to calcitriol (the actual hormone) different?

Here is a cool chart depicting vit D metabolism:

Biochemistry and Physiology of Vitamin D

As you can see, it's not so simple.

Here is a link to an article about vit D toxicity in humans:

http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/vitaminDToxicity.shtml

Apparently, it is very hard to overdose on vit D.

Maia, please do not shy away from the discussion

 

[Scarlet.Escapist]

Hmm, interesting replies so far! As most of you know on the internet a lot of things can be made up and have no scientific evidence to back up claims, that is one of the reasons I chose to ask and clarify . I'm not pointing fingers and what not, since everyone will read different materials to gather their info... so hopefully no one will feel offended/insulted/picked-on, as it is not what I'm trying to do lol.

Maia and Viktor has also brought up some interesting questions :idea: ! Hopefully, someone will have the information to share with us.

On a recent post, (not sure if I should directly quote; so I'll paraphrase and leave out the op's name)... Basically, the poster said that vitamin d3 is a fat soluble vitamin...meaning it takes longer for the body to absorb it, therefore if the gecko is given more and more Vitamin d3 because of say..regular dusting with ca+d3, the levels of vit d3 can reach toxicity before their body can absorb the previous meal's amount of d3. [sorry if this is what the poster meant, if the poster I quoted knows who she/he is feel free to correct me :] ). The species the poster was referring to he/she also stated that they contain a higher percentage of body fat; therefore they only dust prey items ca+d3 once every 2 weeks?-a month---and pure ca the rest of the other feedings. So from this I gather, each species will have a different percentage of body fat, which will effect the amount of vitamin d3 they can absorb/consume before the reach a supposed "overdose"/toxicity level.

On another forum, (once again I'm not sure if I can directly quote the poster's reply...if can, someone just tell me I can quote it and it would make our lives easier so we don't have to do a he said/she said lol =p ).... a poster said something similar to the poster I paraphrased... in that thread the use of UVB synthesis of Vit d3 and dietary consumption of Vitamin d3 was talked about. The poster said since vitamin d3 was fat soluble it takes a longer time for it to leave the body compared to water soluble vitamins. The poster goes on to discuss how excess vit d3 can lead to a higher amount of calcium absorb which can lead to some consequential results.

I hope more people will find this thread interesting hint hint :lol:. So much better when we can pool our knowledge! :biggrin:

 

[viktor]

Here is a link to the Vieth paper on vitamin D safety:

Vitamin D supplementation, 25-hydroxyvitamin D concentrations, and safety -- Vieth 69 (5): 842 -- American Journal of Clinical Nutrition

Interesting stuff, though we don't know how much of this applies to reptiles.

 

[MauricesExoticPets]

Interesting stuff.
http://www.reptileuvinfo.com/docs/vitamin-d-house-geckos-texas-spiny.pdf

This might help you some.

http://people.hofstra.edu/jason_d_williams/HUML/Handbooks/Ferguson.pdf

Maybe this as well but sort of off topic.

http://www.reptileuvinfo.com/docs/d3-iguanian-lizard-laingand-fraser.pdf
http://sperti.com/pdf's/Bio Eff of Light BOOK.pdf

hypercalcemia and hyperphosphatemia in reptiles induced by 25-hydroxyvitamin D and 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D

ScienceDirect - General and Comparative Endocrinology : Effect of Various Vitamin D Metabolites on Serum Calcium and Inorganic Phosphate in the Freshwater Snake Natrix piscator

I tend to get flamed when I say things like 200 IU of vitamin D3 per kilogram of diet on an as fed basis.

Yes the exact dietary requirement is different for each species based on a huge number of factors; including the reptiles fat content, the feeder insects consumption of foods that contain the vitamin, any number of health issues that inhibit proper vitamin D3 conversion, etc. etc. etc..

I do believe this may become a refreshing conversation.

Maurice Pudlo

 

[viktor]

Interesting stuff.

hypercalcemia and hyperphosphatemia in reptiles induced by 25-hydroxyvitamin D and 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D

ScienceDirect - General and Comparative Endocrinology : Effect of Various Vitamin D Metabolites on Serum Calcium and Inorganic Phosphate in the Freshwater Snake Natrix piscator

I tend to get flamed when I say things like 200 IU of vitamin D3 per kilogram of diet on an as fed basis.

Yes the exact dietary requirement is different for each species based on a huge number of factors; including the reptiles fat content, the feeder insects consumption of foods that contain the vitamin, any number of health issues that inhibit proper vitamin D3 conversion, etc. etc. etc..

I do believe this may become a refreshing conversation.

Maurice Pudlo

(6.50 nmol of D3 per 100g body weight)*(1E-9 mol/nmol)*(384.64 g/mol of D3)*(1E6 mg/g)*(1/0.025 IU of D3/mg) = 100 IU of D3 per 100g of body weight

My calculation could be wrong, since I did this real fast, but it looks like these snakes were fed 100 IU of vitamin D3 per 100g. Unless anyone is feeding pure D3, I don't think we can manage to get this much D3 into a gecko via dusting. Does anyone know how much D3 is in Repcal, for example?

BTW, thanks for that first link. That's cool. I will have to read that one when I get a chance!

 

[kruler]

Does anyone know how much D3 is in Repcal, for example?

Repcal contains 400,000 IU/kg

 

[viktor]

Repcal contains 400,000 IU/kg

Ok, so some rough numbers:
A 5.2 oz container includes about 58,800 IU of vitamin D3. Assuming about 100 uses per container (a debatable number), I am dusting about 588 IUs with each feeding. About half of this ends up not making it onto the crickets, so assume 294 IUs per about 100 crickets or so, or about 3 IU per cricket. So assuming all the dust stays on each cricket, and assuming a gecko eats five fully dusted crickets, each gecko is ingesting a max of 15 IUs of vitamin D3.

I am going to weigh how much Repcal I actually use with each feeding to get more exact numbers.

 

[MauricesExoticPets]

Take this into consideration; lots of smaller feeders have a larger surface area than say one single larger feeder.

Thus; the volume of dust taken with the meal will be different with smaller feeders than it is with larger feeders even if the total weight of the meal is the same.

I would think a scale that measures down to .001g might be required to get great results. Scales that measure in this range are somewhat hard to work with as the slightest bit of air movement will alter the reading.

As for your math, how many crickets of any particular size are there to a kg? Thats just over 2.2lbs of crickets for those who don't do the metric system. My recomendation is vit D3 200IU/kg as fed.

By your calculation of 3IU per cricket and using my 200IU/kg as fed suggestion each cricket would need to tip the scales at 15.15g to match my suggested intake level of vitamin D3 per kg of diet.

You are on the right track, you just need to dig a bit deeper and you will be all over it.

Maurice Pudlo

 

[kruler]

The vit D3 content of Repcal is sufficient to be the only source of D3 for Phelsuma not kept under UV lighting (Christenson, Day Geckos in Captivity). It follows logically then that the dosage of 400,000IU/kg is more than is needed for animals obtaining D3 from other sources ie. UV lighting. In the past, I have used Repcal with Phelsuma kept under UV lights and did not see any evidence of toxicity. From this I'm going to assume that there is significant breathing room between levels that are sufficient and those that are dangerous. However, I don't think any discussion in this area can be generalized between different species.

 

[MauricesExoticPets]

The vit D3 content of Repcal is sufficient to be the only source of D3 for Phelsuma not kept under UV lighting (Christenson, Day Geckos in Captivity). It follows logically then that the dosage of 400,000IU/kg is more than is needed for animals obtaining D3 from other sources ie. UV lighting. In the past, I have used Repcal with Phelsuma kept under UV lights and did not see any evidence of toxicity. From this I'm going to assume that there is significant breathing room between levels that are sufficient and those that are dangerous. However, I don't think any discussion in this area can be generalized between different species.

The thing is you are not delivering 400,000IU/kg, to do this you would need to feed just the calcium plus vitamin D3.

My 200IU/kg vitamin D3 as fed means that for every kg of diet (including insects, fruit, MRP, or whatever) there should be 200IU of vitamin D3 in the diet. Yes there is plenty of wiggle room between species, and even some span in same species needs depending on the particular care given. One must also consider a reptiles current health and health history.

My recommendation is a safe starting point, and will suffice for most reptiles without regard to their particular methods of care assuming they are being cared for fairly well and in accordance to the species general needs as far as temperature, humidity, and light cycle are concerned.

What needs to be understood here is that vitamin D3 does not work alone, it works with a slew of other vitamins, minerals, amino acids, fats, and carbohydrates, etc. as part of the greater thing we call a meal. Each has its own place and must be present in proportion to the others in order to work. These proportions are surprisingly similar between species, but not exactly the same due to a number of factors.

Without detailed research on every reptile out there in the pet trade we simply will not know the exact needs of each species. But general needs can be developed by looking over the vast and highly scattered pile of existing information and compiling it into a useable form.

Adjustments of course will happen based on species specific needs and because of health issues even where one set of nutritional values works with a particular species but an individual has an issue that precludes proper assimilation of the nutrients.

Maurice Pudlo

 

[Dyesub Dave]

OK .... This may be the LEAST scientific post here!! LOL I keep several species of gecko as you can see from my signature as well as Chameleons, Fire Skinks, Tree Frogs and my son has Tarantulas and Fire Belly Toads. My Day Geckos and Fire Skinks could use some UVB fluorescent lighting however I currenlty only have general fluorescent lighting which doesn't give off much UVB from my research. The chameleons have some UVB lighting but I'm not sure if it's enough given the size of their enclosures.

I have so many animals to feed that I don't have separate dusting containers for each type of reptile, amphibian and invert and use the same container for all animals. I use Reptivite, Rep-Cal Calcium and Rep-Cal Calcium w/D3. I alternate what I dust with and will sometimes mix a bit of the Rep-Cal (with or without D3) with the Reptivite. I have no exact schedule and just change up from what I dusted with previously. About once a week I don't dust at all and many of my critters will eat Repashy 2-part and/or fruit smoothies with no supplementation.

When feeding and using Calcium with D3 I try to feed the animals that require it more first. And as I dust more feeders the amount of supplement in the container drops a bit so the animals not requiring as much don't get the same level of supplementation.

I have never noticed any signs of either vitamin deficiency or overdose. I only once noticed that my female Fire Skink ... shortly after I got them ... looked to be starting to get RICKETS which prompted me to offer them a bit more D3 with their intake and things seem to be fine now. I strive to give a varied diet with varied supplementation as that's what they would get in nature and it seems to have worked well so far. I have several species breeding with several more to hopefully start next season.

Sorry that this doesn't answer the original post but I thought that I would reply with my experience so far using supplementation.

Dyesub Dave. :biggrin:

 

[kruler]

The thing is you are not delivering 400,000IU/kg, to do this you would need to feed just the calcium plus vitamin D3.

My 200IU/kg vitamin D3 as fed means that for every kg of diet (including insects, fruit, MRP, or whatever) there should be 200IU of vitamin D3 in the diet. Yes there is plenty of wiggle room between species, and even some span in same species needs depending on the particular care given. One must also consider a reptiles current health and health history.

My recommendation is a safe starting point, and will suffice for most reptiles without regard to their particular methods of care assuming they are being cared for fairly well and in accordance to the species general needs as far as temperature, humidity, and light cycle are concerned.

What needs to be understood here is that vitamin D3 does not work alone, it works with a slew of other vitamins, minerals, amino acids, fats, and carbohydrates, etc. as part of the greater thing we call a meal. Each has its own place and must be present in proportion to the others in order to work. These proportions are surprisingly similar between species, but not exactly the same due to a number of factors.

Without detailed research on every reptile out there in the pet trade we simply will not know the exact needs of each species. But general needs can be developed by looking over the vast and highly scattered pile of existing information and compiling it into a useable form.

Adjustments of course will happen based on species specific needs and because of health issues even where one set of nutritional values works with a particular species but an individual has an issue that precludes proper assimilation of the nutrients.

Maurice Pudlo

Maurice,

I didn't mean to suggest that 400,000IU/kg was actually being delivered to the animal. I was just demonstrating that the D3 content of RepCal is high enough to be the only source for phelsuma and therefore is quite high.

I don't think there are many people who would have the time and equipment that would be necessary to ensure they are delivering a recommended dosage of D3 such as the 200IU/kg of total food you suggested. I think the discussion should be of what products and methods have been proven to work/not work with which species under what conditions.

 

[MauricesExoticPets]

kruler,
I understand your point and it is valid. What works for you is perfectly fine I will not argue that at all.

There are a number of things to consider even for your tried and true method, what do you feed your insects for example and does that diet contain vitamin D3? At what temperature are you keeping your animals? How closely do you monitor the Ca ratio of their diets?

While you may or may not keep tabs on these things they are all very related.

You might feed your insects Maurice's Exotic Pets Insect Diet Maintenance Formula, and the next guy feeds his Pro Geckos Gut Load. The two diets do not contain the same ingredients or nutritional values, so if this other guy is dusting the same way you do it may not work.

I think breaking it down to exacting requirements is helpful in the long run. I am glad that Ca+D3 powders are available on the market, were it not for someone who was keen enough to figure out that insects had so little to offer by way of calcium in the first place we might have never progressed this far.

Maurice Pudlo

 

[Scarlet.Escapist]

Interesting articles! Thanks for sharing:biggrin:. I've been trying to locate an article that related to Vitamin overdose (in Chameleons) but the site that held the article has not renewed its domain..

Other somewhat related sites..about Ca and vitd3...
Calcium Metabolism and MBD
Vitamin and mineral supplementation
Kidney Failure/Metabolic Bone Disease/Vitamin D Supplements

On the week as I browsed through the reptile supplement isle in a store, I saw T-Rex Solar drops. I tried to get a look at supposedly how much vit d3 is contained per drop... and I think it was either .02/.20/200 IU.
T-Rex Solar Drops.. <--good/bad/ok? What are your thoughts? I would assume from what others have said on reaching possible toxicity levels, this product will lead to toxicity faster than the powdered supplements...:?

 

[MauricesExoticPets]

Solar Drops will cure both of these conditions, effect successful reproduction and allow all your reptiles to thrive and not just survive.

This is a wickedly dangerous statement that will get a lot of people in trouble, and is not at all true in every case.

Both vitamins D2 (found in plants) and D3 require processing in the liver and kidneys prior to being functional. There is a synthetic vitamin D that does not require the same processing that will allow reptiles with advanced MBD to recover somewhat. In most cases the problem is too far along when the liver or kidneys (one or both) fail or are reduced in function and vitamin D3 is administered in any form.

In cases where MBD can be assumed in the near future due to poor diet, and/or substandard access to correct levels of UVB, vitamin D3 in the proper dosing along with a modified diet can prevent MBD.

UVB and vitamin D3 added to the diet can lead to excessive mineral uptake, and excessive dosages of vitamin D3 alone can do the same thing.

With this in mind, I am inclined to believe that basking reptiles do not need additional vitamin D3 as a supplement (dust or drops) but I do offer it via gut loading in a portion of the insects I feed them and I pay particular attention to providing them with UVB basking areas. Wild basking reptiles that eat mostly insects do get a portion of vitamin D2/3 via their diet (D2 from plant eating insects and D3 from insects that consume animal flesh or blood of species that produce vitamin D3).

Our nocturnal reptiles that do not bask in direct sunlight (real or simulated) with any regularity and are not normally kept under any UVB require most if not all of their vitamin D2/3 from their diet. Some studies suggest that nocturnal reptiles do process vitamin D3 via basking though only for a very short time and at a time when UVB radiation is quite low.

A consistent diet without undue highs and lows of any particular nutrient is going to produce the best health, limit stress on the reptile, and provide a better quality of life. Once weekly dosing of say vitamin D3 will cause a spike and taper off effect that in my mind is not optimal in any way.

One could presume from the above statement that a singular feeder would be the best way to stabilize the nutrient profile in a reptiles diet, while this is in fact correct what we do not know is the exact dietary requirements of each and every reptile species out there. Variety in feeder insects actually helps us average and fills in the nutrient content of the entire diet.

If we knew exactly what particular reptiles dietary needs were, we could construct insect diets that modify the feeders nutrient profile to match. This is not likely going to happen in the near future.

I feel that dusting with calcium (with or without vitamin D3), is not addressing the issue properly.

Gut loading with calcium to the point where the Ca ratio is at or very near 2:1 (where Calcium represents 0.7+/-0.1% of the diet) combined with 200IU/kg vitamin D3 is the proper way to go. This is admittedly overly complicated for some keepers, yet I must in good conscience stick with it as I firmly believe it to be the best figure to go with when speaking of reptiles in general.

Adjusting from there is of course best done on the advice of a qualified reptile vet following detailed testing, adjustments to the recommendation by random guess is the worst option. The midline would be modification based on the advice of a person highly skilled in the particular species you are dealing with.

Maurice Pudlo