Yet another NZ bust?

[TOM_P]

@siouxie
Thanks allot. I appreciate your post.

@Jon
I have posted a long thread about all the Somali Hemidactylus species i found on the Hemidactylus section of this forum along with some Agamas and other Lizards.

I have put up a picture of every single species I found to share with the community.
I have given some away virtually speaking for nothing in Hamm to people who were interested in them. I tried to talk to you about a year ago when I had seen you in Hamm but you seemed very busy when I approached you so I didn't want to be a nuisance. I gladly would have given you some of the Hemidactylus and I very much do appreciate all the hints and advise you gave me in the past. I just got the impression you didnt seem very interested in talking to me in Hamm when I approached you. So my appologies if you feel I took your advice and didn't get back to you. I did appreciate it allot and I know you are a very successful breeder back in the US and you can approach me about Hemidactylus anytime.

Talking about Somalia, this may go a bit off topic and is not directed at you Jon nor has it anything to do with the N.gemeus story and im not comparing that situation to the N. gemmeus as I know its two different situations.
But I just want to give a little insight to my personal reasoning and its not directed at anyone. Somalia is by far the most dangerous country in the world judging by security. But to me its far more than that. I have a deep emotional bond with Somalia, I lived with Somalis for years and have a son and a daughter who are half Somali. I traveled extensively throughout the north to areas beyond the safe boundaries of Somaliland. My car was shot at and I on another occasion once was an inch away from being taken hostage at gunpoint in the Daallo mountains after local Gunmen had blocked the track to ambush us. But to me it is an adventure and I love traveling in Somalia as I have allot of personal history with that Country. But it comes at a high price not only financially. So yes when I handpicked 10 - 20 H.taylori and brought them back to europe (I did export these with legal papers), I did sell them for 500 euro each. A days expenses in Somalia for the Landcruiser, the armed militia for protection, the khat to keep them all chewing and happy along with the petrol and all ran me over 400$ a day. Add flight tickets and add that up for a 10 day trip. Its not a gold minting business to me. I did it out of passion and adventure. I love reptiles. I have done so since I was suckling on a pacifier standing infront of my fathers Terraria with Kingsnakes in them decades ago.

I love sharing my pictures on this forum, and It made me happy to give people the opportunity to have interesting animals as the H. taylori in good condition in the best of health hand picked and hand delivered.

I dont think a H. taylori could care less that it is being legally shipped with export papers according to the law when its sitting at some exporters Garage for weeks in coffee bags piled ontop of each other in Ethiopia such as the H. taylori did that are or at least were offered in the USA. And I was there. I have seen exactly what and how they were kept when they used to be shipped from Ethiopia so I know exactly what im talking about.
The collector from Somalia would collect them over a few days till he had the amount ordered by the exporter then he would travel By bus for 3 days with the Hemitheconyx stuffed in Coffee bags up to Addis Ababa in Ethiopia where the exporter then would receive them. Then he would apply for the export papers and arrange a booking with the airlines while the animals would be sitting in his garage for another week at the very minimum with no food (and anyone with experience on H.taylori will certainly know that the collector and the exporter were unable to feed the H. taylori during this period). So back in the US one would receive 100% legally exported animals that had no food and very little water for 2 weeks traveling on a gravel track on bus for 3 days through the deserts and laying in a cold Garage in the highlands of Ethiopia for another week.

I hand collected 10 - 20 when I would go to Somalia on my last few days. They would fly with me straight out and back to Europe and would take no more than 3 - 5 days from capture to being in a terraria here in Europe. I did export them legally, every single one of them. But lets even just for the sake of it claim I smuggled them totally illegal braking the law showing what a ruthless criminal I am.

Which one of the H. taylori would you have wanted to be if you were to choose ?

 

[casey]

At best you're embarrassed to have been caught. You're motivations were strictly motivated by financial gain. You're one of the reasons CITES exists, and a factor (however minor it may be), in the reason the IUCN Redlist is so chock full of critically endangered fauna and flora. Without ever having met you, I can see that you place yourself on an ivory pillar as some savior of these animals. Are introduced predators a major threat in New Zealand... absolutely, but illegal collecting is also a major blight that at the very least equals what rats, stoats, and brushtail possums have done! Shame on you! Your punishment hardly fits the crime in my opinion, but hey that's what opinions are for huh? You really should stay the hell out of New Zealand, your passion (read...lust and greed) for these animals is too strong, and you may be tempted to have a go at smuggling these priceless animals again. You should probably avoid Australia too!!!

 

[casey]

GeckoTom... I usually agree with your views, however I must say that a true gecko lover would not have taken any, not even "just a pair", but rather accepted the fact that with good reason, New Zealand doesn't legally allow export of their geckos.

Siouxie...I don't know you, you don't know me. Don't assume that I secretly lust over these animals, and that I would purchase them by whatever means necessary if available. We're not all hypocrites here on this forum. Perhaps if you didn't live in Australia (having legal means to collect and or purchase many of the native wildlife in your land), that you yourself may also be inclined to purchase animals of questionable origin!

 

[Ruru]

I have seen the rat traps, they are there for a good reason. All are laid out exactly the same way with whole chicken eggs, covered by a box. Im not a rat specialist but I could imagine that rats are smart enough to start avoiding eggs in boxes and start chewing on tasty geckos when seeing a dead fellow rat here and there in the traps. This is just my personal view after having been there and seen the (micro)habitats. I might be totally wrong but it is the impression that it gave me and I do believe that rats pose the greatest danger to the geckos by far over any other factor.

Don't all the grayii and elegans in europe originate from animals that were smuggled years ago ?

As long as one can have a healthy informative discussion I gladly will try to contribute to this discussion and answer if there are questions but I will not get involved in discussions that spiral down to anything less than a healthy discussion or deteriorate into personal arguments.

You have proved your ignorance of conservation, and so have proved your justification for taking those reptiles was an excuse to hide your greed. Eggs are a very effective bait for rats. A rat will see a rat dying of poison, smell the poison on the dying rat, and then avoid the poison. This is not the case for traps. If you like, I could post a photo for you of a rat caught in a trap that had been eaten by other rats. This clearly shows they have no aversion. If you really believed you were taking them for the greater good of the species, you would have taken them from an unprotected area, rather than a place that countless volunteers have worked to secure, and thousands of $ have gone into to in order to maintain it.

Also if you knew anything about nz conservation, you would know about the predator-proof reserves that are popping up everywhere. These reserves are impenetrable for all introduced mammals except mice, and will be the saving grace for many species in nz. It is likely that the species you plundered will be introduced to one of these predator proof areas in the future, at which point their existance as a wild species will be secure. This is certainly a better option for the species than poaching them overseas, where a huge restriction in breeding options will lead to genetic degradation of the species in the long term.
The greatest problem predator proof areas are from a**holes like you, who will see the fence, and take it as an invitaion to claim anything within it.

Tom, you have proved yourself to be the greatest hypocrite of all.

 

[Ruru]

unfortunately, forums all around the world have members which think threads and posts have to agree with their views or the infidels must be flamed.

good on you for putting your views across. at least, if nothing else, everybody gets a full account of the incident, and many versions don't merge to create an urban myth.

TOM_P you are a courageous and brave soul, at least you can sleep well at night. secretly, they all share your passion and do understand your position. some people just love to 'kick a man when he's down'. ironically, the word that springs to mind is derived from the german language, "schadenfreude".

be aware, there are indeed people who would support you whatever your misdemeanours. you have a strong character and will get through all this i am sure.

I'm sure there are plenty of criminals that could be considered couragous, with a strong character. It certainly doesn't justify their actions. Personally, I think all criminals who so arrogantly and ignorantly justify their actions should be kicked severely!
Would you be as supportive if a convicted paedophile justified his molestation by saying "they were going to do it when they grew up anyway"?

 

[TOM_P]

@casey

You just above claimed that: "Siouxie...I don't know you, you don't know me. Don't assume that I secretly lust over these animals, and that I would purchase them by whatever means necessary if available. We're not all hypocrites here on this forum....

But you not too long ago posted this about H.rakiruae on this forum:

"Just thought I would share a quick pic of what is in my humble opinion THE most beautiful gecko in the world. No,the specimen isn't mine (WISHFUL THINKING) ,the pic was "borrowed" from New Zealand's Terra Nature website. Enjoy!
Crazy fan of Rhacodactylus,Dierogekko,Hoplodactylus,Bavayia,Oed odera, NAULTINUS, Saltuarius,Phyllurus,Uroplatus"

Is that not contradicting? Everyone has their opinion and that is o.k.
But in case you own Naultinus in the US (considering you are a huge fan of them as you stated and wished you were a owner of H.rakiruae etc.) then I don't really see what gives you reason to believe you need to call a witch hunt on me.

@Ruru, There is no fence at that locality. The only thing there was were 4 rat traps. So please don't claim i did or would have climbed a fence to nurture some financial lust in getting the geckos by any means necessary as you just don't know and are just making unbacked allegations. Being unable to reply without resorting to abusive language thus calling me an a**hole isn't a sign of great personality either. The locality was not a reserve and has no fence. You being from New Zealand I however acknowledge that you possibly have a genuine reason to be pissed off at me contrary to someone like casey. And if you are or were involved as a volunteer with that locality personally, and only then, my sincere appologies to you. That would be very respectable.
But then you also should be honest enough to agree that, had I gone there for financial gain only, I or we would have taken far more than the 16 as the population, as you would know, is far higher on that very small spot alone. You also would know how easy it is to see more than 40 gemmeus at just that locality on one morning alone. Leave alone the other localities on the peninsula we went to.
The fines or jail time would have been all the same if I had been involved with 5, 10, 100 or even 1000 N.gemmeus. Would have made zero difference in court. So if its all about the money as claimed here so rigorously, why did I not take more ?

I did brake the law. I know that. Im not saying im proud of what happened.
But for people who dont know anything about me to make up rumours is not quite correct either. I too decided to give my opinion and perspective to this thread after all the rumour mongering. And having done so this is likely my last post as I know this thread could go on forever with speculations, accusations, arguments and counter arguments which will lead no where. Aggression and abuse is no solution to any problems contrary to a healthy discussion which could have been quite interesting and beneficial to the understanding of all sides.

 

[Southernman]

Casey & Ruru,
You guys rock!

I was begining to think "Gecko's Unlimited" was some kind of website for the criminally insane. How can anyone mentally balanced side with Tom. Sorry mate, you've lost the plot - big time.
Thankyou thankyou thankyou, Casey & Ruru!
Who in their right mind sides with criminals. Siouxie, you sound like you've lost your way. I know Australia was originally a Penal Colony, but come on!
How can you say to Tom he's a "courageous & brave man". No he's not. We here in New Zealand feel he got off far too lightly! No one's kicking him when he's down, he's nothing more than a common thief, driven by greed & he got caught.
Moniqua, I'm glad another Kiwi has said something at last.
Phil

 

[siouxie]

Would you be as supportive if a convicted paedophile justified his molestation by saying "they were going to do it when they grew up anyway"?

how on earth can you criticize anyone else's thought processes, you are sick to compare offences relating to wildlife and child sex crimes, very, very sick.

 

[siouxie]

@casey

You just above claimed that: "Siouxie...I don't know you, you don't know me. Don't assume that I secretly lust over these animals, and that I would purchase them by whatever means necessary if available. We're not all hypocrites here on this forum....

But you not too long ago posted this about H.rakiruae on this forum:

"Just thought I would share a quick pic of what is in my humble opinion THE most beautiful gecko in the world. No,the specimen isn't mine (WISHFUL THINKING) ,the pic was "borrowed" from New Zealand's Terra Nature website. Enjoy!
Crazy fan of Rhacodactylus,Dierogekko,Hoplodactylus,Bavayia,Oed odera, NAULTINUS, Saltuarius,Phyllurus,Uroplatus"

Is that not contradicting? Everyone has their opinion and that is o.k.
But in case you own Naultinus in the US (considering you are a huge fan of them as you stated and wished you were a owner of H.rakiruae etc.) then I don't really see what gives you reason to believe you need to call a witch hunt on me.

Casey, you do lust, openly. see how it's convenient to deny it when attacking someone else. your moral high-ground is in the gutter.

 

[casey]

Siouxie... Like I said you don't know me and therefore how can you draw a clear conclusion to my motives? Yes, in a perfect world perhaps if they weren't endangered or protected by law, I would acquire H. rakiurae. But they are endangered and protected, and I wouldn't bend or break the law to obtain them. You wanna know something? I am fanatic about the genera mentioned in my post. I'm fanatic that they still exist so that my two children, and their future children can enjoy them as well. I'm not one to brag, but I have the funds to visit New Zealand if I so choose to do so, just as much as I could afford to purchase a pair of Nautinus spp or Hoplodactylus spp., if I chose to do so! I'm content with my collection, and I'm content to read about and enjoy photography of New Zealand herps without the urge to purchase live animals. I do not envy or condemn ANYONE who owns the aforementioned genera, I simply choose not to own them myself. Also in that earlier post of mine (one of my very first on this forum actually), I did say that I "borrowed" the pic of H. rakiurae, and further down I do explain that I was given consent to use the photo, which is true. So again, how dare you assume you know the degree of enjoyment these animals give me. There are many of us who can and do practice "look but don't touch" standards. For Tom, the writing is clearly on the wall... he blatantly smuggled protected animals...PERIOD!

 

[casey]

Tom_P... This will probably be my last comment on this thread as well, as it could infinitely go on and on, only getting more abusive as it gains momentum. With that said, how can you say that I don't have as much right to be pissed off by your actions as a native New Zealander does? I care about conservation of species, and the knowledge of the true degree of global biodiversity across all taxonomic groups...both plants and animals. The majority of my posts are in the Taxonomy and Systematics, and Conservation and Ethics forums. Like I told Siouxie, perhaps...maybe, in a perfect world I would acquire H. rakiurae if they were legally available, and not a protected species! They aren't either of those things, and I accept that. I am a "crazy fanatic" of Hoplodactylus, Bavayia, Naultinus, Rhacodactylus, etc., etc. I'm also fanatic about mountain gorillas, bluefin tuna, giant pandas, and Komodo dragons...you're point is what? One can be in love with something, without the urge to "own" it or exploit it in any other manner. My actual collection of geckos is very small, containing spp. of the genera Rhacodactylus, Bavayia, and Uroplatus. All taxa in my possesion were legally collected, or captive-bred. As for the wild-caught animals, there is a reason CITES exists... to let global and local governments establish quotas for sustainable harvests of some species, or prohibit it altogether for others. I don't condemn any keepers of New Zealand or Australian geckos, I just choose not to myself, knowing the export bans have been in effect for both places for a long time, and I won't knowingly purchase any animals that are of questionable origin. I have to be careful to not be accused myself of standing on an ivory pillar, these are just my personal opinions and choices I've made for myself.

 

[siouxie]

I'm also fanatic about mountain gorillas, bluefin tuna, giant pandas, and Komodo dragons...you're point is what? One can be in love with something, without the urge to "own" it or exploit it in any other manner.

"No,the specimen isn't mine (WISHFUL THINKING)" , your words casey, which exemplify your urge to own it, and gives credence to you being a hypocite. that is my point.

 

[willbenn]

i'm sorry but to all the people in this thread that preach conservation. if you keep any animals at all, you are just as hypocritical as anyone else. if you really, truly believe in animal conservation, you wouldn't keep any reptiles. even species that are captive bred at some point in their genealogical history, these species were taken from the wild. yes, many species become established in captivity via legal avenues. if you are someone that is okay with keeping these species, that's great but you're not a conservationist. you're simply someone that is okay with "legal" exploitation.

sorry if i offended anyone, but i had to throw in my two cents because i'm getting tried of people that preach animal conservation but don't really know the true meaning.

 

[casey]

willbenn...I'm not here to argue with anyone, rather just to have healthy discussions with like-minded people that have an interest in geckos, or any other similar topic. I was just curious if the same rules of preaching conservation/possessing animals or plants that trace their genealogy back to wild-collected founder specimens also applies to zoos and botanical gardens? I'm sorry but I can own an animal and be a conservationist, and also not be a hypocrite. Incidentally, I breed my animals and disseminate offspring at no charge to others interested in breeding them. I don't make a dime from my charges, so I ask how it is that I'm exploiting them, unless again simply having them at all is a form of exploitation?

Siouxie...You obviously can't read, so this rebuttal is probably a waste of my time and energy, but here goes again. Wishfully thinking about owning anything, a gecko or otherwise doesn't equate to breaking the law to obtain it. I said "IF" they weren't endangered and/or "IF" they weren't protected by law, that I "MIGHT" consider acquiring them. That doesn't mean that I'd do anything to obtain them. I'm not a hypocrite, but you're certainly entitled to believe that I am. Whatever floats your boat! I'm done chasing my tail trying to explain my motives, and besides apparently you're a mind reader who thinks they know what my motives are anyway.

 

[Geitje]

Willben -
I hope that you do not exercise identical methodology in your parenting (if you have kids), policing (if you were a police officer) or judging (would not want to be in your courtroom) in a court of law. Regardless of circumstances - everyone takes a hit and is punished – right? Zoos, scientists, hobbyists and others currently holding any species in captivity because their native habits have been exacerbated all fall under your blanket clause of “hypocrites” and are “just okay with legally exploiting them”? Hmmpphh.

By the way, captive breeding in whatever facet can be a means of conserving native populations by easing the strain on the need to recollect them. Madagascar, Uroplatus, Phelsuma are some words that come to mind.

 

[casey]

Geitje...Thanks for the support!!!

Siouxie...I wanted to clarify that by not breaking the law to obtain H. rakiurae, or any other protected animal also includes to not purchase them from someone else who broke the law to obtain them either. I think that concludes all I have to say to you.

 

[willbenn]

maybe i worded my post incorrectly. i certainly don't think it's wrong to keep things as pets. what i'm trying to say is that ALL of us in one way or another are exploiting(maybe too harsh of a word in this context) stuff that we keep as pets. it doesn't matter if we keep them for monetary gain, to increase knowledge, or to simply satisfy our own personal obsessions, we are still "using" them for some reason. and whether we see our geckos as dollar signs or pets we love, they are all somehow connected to the wild at some point.

@ casey - personally, i think zoos are often the worst of all. putting an animal in a cage for people to pay money to see??? that's the textbook definition of exploitation right there. don't get me wrong, i think zoos definitely have there place and do great work towards education and increasing knowlegde of the world we live in, but at the same time they are certainly exploiting animals.

@ geitje - yes, i think captive breeding has a positive affect on wild populations, but by acquiring something to start with, we are all feeding the machine. at some point, we acquired our geckos from someone or somewhere. uroplatus and phelsuma.......i'm sorry but it doesn't matter how many of these geckos we produce in captivity, the wild populations in Madagascar face much larger issues that captive breeding will never be able to fix.

 

[casey]

willbenn...I believe that in situ and ex situ conservation efforts are both necessary. I don't believe in wild animals as "pets", that's what dogs and cats are here for. I just get slightly offended when my conservation ethos is questioned. If no species of wild plant or animal was available, I wouldn't lose sleep or cry about it. I view my responsibility as a privilege, not a right, just as zoos ( who in addition to charging people to "see the animals", also contribute large portions of the money from those admission/concession charges towards funding conservation efforts among other things) should. I do not keep and breed Madagascan and New Caledonian geckos for monetary gain or simply for mere pleasure, and yes ideally they should be left in the wild, that's why I financially support groups such as Conservation International, that use my money and others' to try and make this a reality. I do practice what I preach in my opinion. I was also a vehement supporter of the HR669 bill by the way!

 

[casey]

I think this thread needs to be transferred to the ethics forum. In concluding my contributions to this thread, and since being labeled not a true conservationist, I think that IUCN Redlist ratings should determine trade (if any) in species. There are thousands of species listed (reptiles included) as Critically Endangered by the IUCN, and yet many aren't even listed on any of CITES three appendices. CITES is still stuck in the Dark Ages, and takes an almost deplorable amount of time determining what to list or not to list. I know the true meaning and spirit of conservation, and my reptile collection doesn't diminish that fact or make me a hypocrite in ANY way. Sorry but it doesn't. And that's not me desperately trying to find a way to be "okay" with my actions, that's just a fact! Here's an idea...maybe we can all get back to the fascinating geckos of New Zealand instead of dragging this one on and on.

 

[viktor]

maybe i worded my post incorrectly. i certainly don't think it's wrong to keep things as pets. what i'm trying to say is that ALL of us in one way or another are exploiting(maybe too harsh of a word in this context) stuff that we keep as pets. it doesn't matter if we keep them for monetary gain, to increase knowledge, or to simply satisfy our own personal obsessions, we are still "using" them for some reason. and whether we see our geckos as dollar signs or pets we love, they are all somehow connected to the wild at some point.

What's wrong with using animals? Are you a vegan? If not, you probably should not berate others about "using" animals. If yes, well, then we descend into a pointless debate in which neither side will give an inch.

@ casey - personally, i think zoos are often the worst of all. putting an animal in a cage for people to pay money to see??? that's the textbook definition of exploitation right there. don't get me wrong, i think zoos definitely have there place and do great work towards education and increasing knowlegde of the world we live in, but at the same time they are certainly exploiting animals.

Seriously? And if they let people in for free, then it is not exploitation? What does charging money, or even displaying the animals, have anything to do with it?

@ geitje - yes, i think captive breeding has a positive affect on wild populations, but by acquiring something to start with, we are all feeding the machine. at some point, we acquired our geckos from someone or somewhere. uroplatus and phelsuma.......i'm sorry but it doesn't matter how many of these geckos we produce in captivity, the wild populations in Madagascar face much larger issues that captive breeding will never be able to fix.

While it may be true that the wild populations face larger issues than those which captive breeding may be able to address (i.e., habitat destruction), at the same time, the wild populations face larger issues than those which wild collecting may be causing.

I am confused about your original motivation in posting your comments. Do you keep reptiles, while at the same time being wracked with guilt about it?