Ozymandias
New member
Also what where the crickets and roaches feed before thay where tested or did that starve them for a day or so to get a good base line?
Feeder Roaches: Care and Breeding
- Thread starter Ozymandias
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cricket4u
New member
I am burried in papers and the more I dig the less visible I have become:lol:
Contact Us
http://theroachguy.com/new_page_1.htm
This one is "as is basis"
http://www.house-of-reptiles.com/feederinvertebrates.pdf
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Ozymandias
New member
Just want to point out that that site has the roaches (assuming dubias) at 61.3 moisture, 20.9 protein and 11.0 fat. adult crickets are 69.2 moisture, 20.5 protein and 6.8 fat
cricket4u
New member
Actually, I posted that one accidently. That one just says ****roaches and does not specify species. It would be interesting to have known which one. All the other sites state above 30% for dubias. Maybe they were talking about the skinny house roaches, :lol: There is just not much information on amounts per species available.
cricket4u
New member
Just thought this may be helpful to some. I am thinking of emailing him to see exactly what he uses for gutload.
Dog and cat food, chicken feed, oatmeal and even fish food have been traditionally used as gutload but they are all aimed at different animal species, not reptiles. Oatmeal doesn’t provide a good balance of nutrition and the other feeds listed tend to be high in protein which can lead to renal problems in reptiles.
What exactly is gutloading?
Dog and cat food, chicken feed, oatmeal and even fish food have been traditionally used as gutload but they are all aimed at different animal species, not reptiles. Oatmeal doesn’t provide a good balance of nutrition and the other feeds listed tend to be high in protein which can lead to renal problems in reptiles.
What exactly is gutloading?
Ozymandias
New member
If you could post the other source that would be awesome. That bing said there are other roaches that make good feeders other than dubias, I use lateralis quite alot because thay are much more active and don't burry them selves for alot of my geckos that need that active movement to stimulate there hunting instincts and those ate much different than dubias. Also what that feed the roaches still makes a difference so if that raised them on dog food there probably going to have a higher protein and fat ratio compared to a roach raised on a low protein diet.
Ozymandias
New member
At least on this forum I thing that sentiment is shared by most people. Intact we have a stick in this sub forum on insect food and gutloads you might consider checking out
Ozymandias
New member
I ment on the source that has 30% protein for roaches, I'm on my phone a little limited when I reply
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cricket4u
New member
Nutritional Facts
Feeder Insects
Dubia Roaches - Feeder Insects - Exotic Pets
Contact Us
It varies. I have post quite a few things in the past posts. I might have posted more after you read it.
Riverside Reptiles
Administrator (HMFIC)
I've just had the time to skim through this thread and not read everything nor looked at the links. So forgive me if I missed something. But I am willing to bet that such high protein levels as to cause gout would have to be a direct result in the roaches being fed a crappy diet such as dog or cat food. I have been using roaches (lateralis and dubia and just recently added lobsters) as a primary diet for many species of geckos for about 5 or 6 years now with zero incidents of gout. However, I take great care to feed very high quality foods to my roaches. Hopefully Maurice (our resident insect feeder guru) will chime in on this thread and provide his insight as well.
cricket4u
New member
That would be great. I do believe that feeding cat or dog food to the feeders has a lot to do with it. The only thing that puts me in a bit of doubt was the 2 cases of the leos that were not fed cat food gutloaded roaches. Although the leo's did not start showing signs until they were about 6-7 years old. I agree there is a difference with the quality of protein. I wish there was a definate answer and roaches were tested after certain gutloads. I just ran into this interesting article and I am surprised to read they can be fed lower protein food. Please read.
Reptile Resources :: Nutrition Articles :: Can Feeder Insect Diets Contribute To Gout In Reptiles? - Repashy Ventures - Distributor Center
Ozymandias
New member
The third link actually recommends you feed roaches a high protein so really would take those numbers with a grain of salt. That last link to doubleD's I would take more seareusly but I know of them and there more of a pet roach store and at least with me my pet roaches get a different diet then my feeder roaches. My pet roach first includes dog food and fish food so it is pretty high in protein but again this is for my pet roaches.
Ozymandias
New member
You have to remember roach in the wild get varry little protein exept for the ocational dead animal most of there food is from dead plant mater or other detrietes so that are adapted to live on lower protien diets much lower than we feed them in captivity.
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MauricesExoticPets
New member
The percentage of insect diet consumed over a 24 hour period has little direct effect on the total protein content of the insect as a whole when fed.
If for example a particular diet were 100% protein and completely dry the average insect will consume along with that diet twice as much fluids, making the days intake closer to 33% protein.
Crickets and roaches consume around 10% of their body weight daily, this is a nice round figure and not exact to any species, and truly depend on how much they like a food, its calorie content, etc. But let’s keep going anyway.
If 10% of the insect is 33% protein we are not adjusting a roaches protein at all with the gut contents and maybe slightly increasing the protein content of the common house cricket.
I do suggest feeding a variety of insect types to your animals, I suggest this for a number of reasons; a) total protein content consumed is adjustable for one if you are able to feed insects with differing protein contents b) insects kept on a diet with XX nutrients will convert those macro and micro nutrients into other macro and micro nutrient levels, they excrete certain minerals and vitamins that are unused, and develop fat reserves for times when food is lacking c) particular insects may be lacking in essential nutrients, vitamins, minerals, and lipids for a particular animal.
Leopard geckos can be reared on little more than supplemented mealworms, as has been shown by many major breeders of this species; unfortunately long term health and overall longevity statistics are in question due to limited data from the breeders. Many professional level enthusiasts believe that mealworms alone are not adequate to support optimal health, while it is agreed upon that their higher calorie content does promote faster weight gain.
Ultimately I believe an overall protein content per meal should be close to 20%, with some adjustment for age and current condition (low weight, breeding, non-breeding, males vs. females etc.)
There are so many factors involved in an animals health that suggesting roaches are the cause of gout based on their high protein or their high protein diet is simply not sound. I feed thousands of roaches to my reptiles every day in combination with mealworms or superworms, sometimes waxworms, and a combination of other available insects including the common house cricket without issue or longevity problems. Where my feeding often differs from the average is that I dust very lightly with Ca+D3 at every feeding and choose to deliver trace vitamins and minerals via the insects gut contents and natural storage of these over time.
On the subject of cat and dog food as insect feed, much of the calorie content of those foods is found in the fat content. Insects feed based on calorie needs, they will consume these until their calorie needs are met. With high levels of fat those diets will provide proportionately less amino acids, minerals, and vitamins while increasing the intake of lipids. Most roach breeders use dog foods as a breeding diet due to low cost, and easy availability. This works for the breeder in terms of return on investment but is far from optimal in terms of their ultimate use as feeders. I will not fault them for looking to make a few dollars.
Reptile nutrition though is a matter of owner choice and decision combined with knowledge (as limited as that may be even for the best of us). Feeding a quality low fat diet to your insects insures they are receiving most of their calories from proteins and complex carbohydrates rather than lipids which are essentially empty calories. Combined with an intelligently designed level of variety in feeder type assures that total protein intake is close to the 20% mark, and supplementing with Ca+D3 daily in proper quantity corrects the Ca
ratio on a constant basis.
When all else fails, one should refer to a veterinarian who is able to test blood and suggest altered feeding suggestions based on those results. Altered feeding suggestions will require a certain level of record keeping on the part of the owner in order to be of any real use; not knowing the exact details of your care and feeding schedule will make any suggestion useless to you or the animal.
Maurice Pudlo
If for example a particular diet were 100% protein and completely dry the average insect will consume along with that diet twice as much fluids, making the days intake closer to 33% protein.
Crickets and roaches consume around 10% of their body weight daily, this is a nice round figure and not exact to any species, and truly depend on how much they like a food, its calorie content, etc. But let’s keep going anyway.
If 10% of the insect is 33% protein we are not adjusting a roaches protein at all with the gut contents and maybe slightly increasing the protein content of the common house cricket.
I do suggest feeding a variety of insect types to your animals, I suggest this for a number of reasons; a) total protein content consumed is adjustable for one if you are able to feed insects with differing protein contents b) insects kept on a diet with XX nutrients will convert those macro and micro nutrients into other macro and micro nutrient levels, they excrete certain minerals and vitamins that are unused, and develop fat reserves for times when food is lacking c) particular insects may be lacking in essential nutrients, vitamins, minerals, and lipids for a particular animal.
Leopard geckos can be reared on little more than supplemented mealworms, as has been shown by many major breeders of this species; unfortunately long term health and overall longevity statistics are in question due to limited data from the breeders. Many professional level enthusiasts believe that mealworms alone are not adequate to support optimal health, while it is agreed upon that their higher calorie content does promote faster weight gain.
Ultimately I believe an overall protein content per meal should be close to 20%, with some adjustment for age and current condition (low weight, breeding, non-breeding, males vs. females etc.)
There are so many factors involved in an animals health that suggesting roaches are the cause of gout based on their high protein or their high protein diet is simply not sound. I feed thousands of roaches to my reptiles every day in combination with mealworms or superworms, sometimes waxworms, and a combination of other available insects including the common house cricket without issue or longevity problems. Where my feeding often differs from the average is that I dust very lightly with Ca+D3 at every feeding and choose to deliver trace vitamins and minerals via the insects gut contents and natural storage of these over time.
On the subject of cat and dog food as insect feed, much of the calorie content of those foods is found in the fat content. Insects feed based on calorie needs, they will consume these until their calorie needs are met. With high levels of fat those diets will provide proportionately less amino acids, minerals, and vitamins while increasing the intake of lipids. Most roach breeders use dog foods as a breeding diet due to low cost, and easy availability. This works for the breeder in terms of return on investment but is far from optimal in terms of their ultimate use as feeders. I will not fault them for looking to make a few dollars.
Reptile nutrition though is a matter of owner choice and decision combined with knowledge (as limited as that may be even for the best of us). Feeding a quality low fat diet to your insects insures they are receiving most of their calories from proteins and complex carbohydrates rather than lipids which are essentially empty calories. Combined with an intelligently designed level of variety in feeder type assures that total protein intake is close to the 20% mark, and supplementing with Ca+D3 daily in proper quantity corrects the Ca
ratio on a constant basis.When all else fails, one should refer to a veterinarian who is able to test blood and suggest altered feeding suggestions based on those results. Altered feeding suggestions will require a certain level of record keeping on the part of the owner in order to be of any real use; not knowing the exact details of your care and feeding schedule will make any suggestion useless to you or the animal.
Maurice Pudlo
MauricesExoticPets
New member
The protein content of decaying plant matter is far higher than that of its parent non-decaying source; high levels of biological activity are required to decay a simple leaf, thus its protein content is not simply a function of the leaf itself but of the biological load it is feeding as well. To be exact in how much additional protein is gained in the process of decay is well beyond my ability to determine, but I would gather there is a measureable difference to be found.
Decaying plant matter is a highly complex feed source and should be thought of as more than simple rotting material, it is a factory of sorts that is producing much more than itself. A leaf for example will contain only so much dry matter which is a mixture of vitamins and minerals, proteins and lipids, the remainder is carbohydrates, all of which are going to be consumed by some microbe, fungus, or broken down by some mechanical method, along with all that the leaf is will be the waste products of microbes, insects, etc. all of which are consumed by our wild roach friends right along with extra minerals that come with rain or are washed off of live leaves with a strong gust of wind or a light fog that accumulates excessive dew.
Wild type diets for roaches are not exactly the stuff of researchers dreams, and our feeder roaches are not real likely to become the stuff we will find lots of info on for quite some time.
I will not go so far as to suggest that you are 100% wrong on this, but I will say that calling their wild type diet low protein without evaluating their wild type diet is somewhat premature.
Maurice Pudlo
Riverside Reptiles
Administrator (HMFIC)
I think that Roy's point was that wild roaches derive their protein more from plant matter than from animal matter, and that's something that needs to be taken into account as well. The protein derived from dog and cat food is obviously animal based.
Ozymandias
New member
lol thanks for the info i had no idea about that actually, you live and you learn
cricket4u
New member
I agree with most of what your saying, however due to my source I have my doubts. I am in no position to debate the whole insect nutrition that is for sure. I find myself in a tuff spot at this moment.
Okay I did not want to mention this for the obvious reasons on a forum, but the person whom I get all the information is an exotic vet. She has been a friend since childhood. I have been fortunate she has allowed me to attend lectures in exchange I would bring my reptiles as volunteers. She is obviously the person who I have referred my friends to which were diagnosed with gout.
I obviously cannot speak for her and will not even try. However, I have much faith in her for many reasons aside from her being a vet. I have seen the proof of everything she has said with my own eyes. She had 2 geckos, one lived to be 20 and the other 22. How often is that seen? This is what she told me:
Geckos are overfed in captivity. Most owners prefer to load their food items with supplements instead of feeding healthy low fat food items. They are kept under minimum requirements, small cages and fatty foods, not allowed to hunt. Well of course most will die by the age of 10. How long would we last if we lived off of McDonalds and powdered supplements. There is no need to supplement more than once a week if they are fed properly.
Personally, I do things differently than most and honestly I have seen the difference.
I use UVB for all my reptiles, (yes including my leo's). I have mostly focused on rehabilitation and rehoming, but I also have my own. I only feed crickets gutloaded with this http://www.mazuri.com/PDF/5M38.pdf . No dusting necessary. Because I use UVB I only use calcium with D once a week, if that. MV's only once a week. I only feed crickets, silkworms, phoenix worms, hornworms and a few roaches a week.
It has worked great for me. My main leo is 9 and thank god has never had any health issues. All labs come back within normal limits and she has also checked his bone density and she told me he looks great. My point is it can be done without the excess fat and oversupplementing. It saddens me to see so many geckos dying young. I just wish some people will realize that just because they look healthy on the outside does not mean they truly are.
Okay enough said:biggrin:
Okay I did not want to mention this for the obvious reasons on a forum, but the person whom I get all the information is an exotic vet. She has been a friend since childhood. I have been fortunate she has allowed me to attend lectures in exchange I would bring my reptiles as volunteers. She is obviously the person who I have referred my friends to which were diagnosed with gout.
I obviously cannot speak for her and will not even try. However, I have much faith in her for many reasons aside from her being a vet. I have seen the proof of everything she has said with my own eyes. She had 2 geckos, one lived to be 20 and the other 22. How often is that seen? This is what she told me:
Geckos are overfed in captivity. Most owners prefer to load their food items with supplements instead of feeding healthy low fat food items. They are kept under minimum requirements, small cages and fatty foods, not allowed to hunt. Well of course most will die by the age of 10. How long would we last if we lived off of McDonalds and powdered supplements. There is no need to supplement more than once a week if they are fed properly.
Personally, I do things differently than most and honestly I have seen the difference.
I use UVB for all my reptiles, (yes including my leo's). I have mostly focused on rehabilitation and rehoming, but I also have my own. I only feed crickets gutloaded with this http://www.mazuri.com/PDF/5M38.pdf . No dusting necessary. Because I use UVB I only use calcium with D once a week, if that. MV's only once a week. I only feed crickets, silkworms, phoenix worms, hornworms and a few roaches a week.
It has worked great for me. My main leo is 9 and thank god has never had any health issues. All labs come back within normal limits and she has also checked his bone density and she told me he looks great. My point is it can be done without the excess fat and oversupplementing. It saddens me to see so many geckos dying young. I just wish some people will realize that just because they look healthy on the outside does not mean they truly are.
Okay enough said:biggrin:
Riverside Reptiles
Administrator (HMFIC)
Sounds like you're referring mostly to leo owners. Most of us here on GU are far beyond leos and work with much more advanced species that require far greater care and knowledge than leos. Not that I have anything against leos. But they're in general a beginner species and that's why you see less than adequate husbandry with many leos.