Peta and reptiles?

[SamanthaLovely]

So basically I made a post on Facebook about how it's more to take sundrop to the vet than it was to get our 7 cats, 3 dogs and 2 ferrets examined and get their flea treatments. And then a bit about how Peta needs to get their act together and do something fore more than just the furry household pets.

So someone comes on and says "They uh...do look after reptiles (and amphibians") Well here's the bit about Geckos on the Caring for Reptiles page that she sent me:

"Geckos

People who would never take on the commitment of a 6-foot iguana might be interested in geckos. Sadly, these are very popular reptiles in pet stores. These small, frail-looking lizards can often live up to 30 years and require a very particular environment without the slightest variance in temperature. They feed on insects and baby mice. Although wild geckos are found throughout temperate and tropical regions of the world, most of the ones offered for sale are captive-bred."

http://www.peta.org/living/companion-animals/caring-for-reptiles.aspx

If I had no knowledge about Geckos and thought Peta knew everything and went off that blerb I think I might have some issues on my hands. Not to mention the fact that they lump all Geckos and Gekkos together. I don't know a whole lot about Geckos and alot less about everything else on this page but I know that baby mice are not a good choice for Leopard geckos and I don't think the dwarf size gekkos or house geckos could eat one if they wanted to.

Basically I'm wondering if anyone can support her statement about Peta helping out Reptiles and Amphibians. Because I am up for changing my opinion of them if I am wrong and they have done some good things. Also I just like to see good things done for all creatures.

 

[Graham_s]

Something that always makes me laugh about animal rights nutters is that the drivel that they spew is never referenced. Which makes their articles just opinionated ramblings.

You're lucky you're not in the UK. The RSPCA is a thousand times worse from what I can gather.

As a general rule, I wouldn't trust an organisation's advice over the advice of knowledgeable, trustworthy and experienced breeders and scientists. However, it is always good to get a range of people's opinions. Different things work for different people.

 

[SamanthaLovely]

Exactly. They just go with the first thing they've read and don't bother to look further. And people who say that organizations like that do so much for animals. When I think of Peta I think of naked celebrities on billboards that tell you not to wear fur. Which is good and all but Why not do something about the people who sell the fur? Because then they'd have no reason for their billboards. It's all just a bunch of hot air for the most part. I don't really care too much about people wearing fur. It's more the people who kill animals for the sole reason to take their fur and throwing out the rest.

 

[DJreptile]

Personally I really take issue with PETA.

They are against the keeping of "exotic" animals of any sort. Their definition of such includes; reptiles, parrots, hedgehogs and sugar gliders amongst others. To this end they will happily misrepresent and occlude the facts which to me is just as dishonest and reprehensible as the sellers who will happily lie to you about the provenance and care of an animal all to make a sale.

Just a few highlights;

"they(snakes) require at least a 30 gallon tank". This is a load of crap and in the case of some snakes damaging. Snakes need an enclosure appropriate to their size a good rule of thumb is minimum 2/3 the total body length, ideally at least 1.5. However an excessively large enclosure can cause problems with some snakes as it can make heat & humidity management extremely difficult, and cause undue stress.

"They're(iguanas) also strict vegans". I wonder if they can smell what they're shoveling? I've worked with Iguana iguana, as well as multiple Cyclura species and all of them benefit from a degree of animal protein in their diets, especially when young. I have thoroughly enjoyed the sight of a newly rehabilitated baby Green Iguana chasing and devouring crickets.

(geckos) "require a very particular environment without the slightest variance in temperature. They feed on insects and baby mice." This statement can't even be made about the most commonly kept geckos; Leopards & Cresteds. Off the top of my head I can think of 4 species that can eat pinky mice, none of which need to, and any Rhacodactylus or Phelsuma keeper will remind you about the virtues of fruit matter in their animal's diets. My experience has been that a regular 20 degree variation in temperature can do wonders for the appetites and libidos of many gecko species, and I can't think of any species that would do well without at least a 10 degree variance between hot and cool within their enclosure.

All told PETA's Caring for Reptiles article is riddled with inaccuracies. I would say that for a group who purports to advocate for animals it is the grossest failure of duty to be propagating this degree of erroneous information. If you take the time to peruse their website you'll find plenty more of this sort of dishonesty.

Now as to whether or not PETA looks out for reptiles and amphibians I would have to say no. Aside from propagating false and misleading information about keeping herps, they ignore some very basic principles of human behavior in their approach.

1) We fear what we don't know. I work with children and I cannot tell you how many kids and parents I meet who are terrified and disgusted by reptiles and amphibians right up until they meet one for the first time. I am always delighted to watch the slow dawning of fascination and then delight on their faces when they meet one of my geckos or snakes for the first time. Not only is it personally gratifying I know I've created another person who will now avoid running over a snake on the road, and maybe give some money to further research and habitat preservation. Captive animals play a vital role in the conservation of their wild brethren by acting as ambassadors. Kids may not care about snakes losing their homes in Brazil, but if you tell them their beloved Mr. Wiggles cousins are dying because the rainforest is being cut down then they care, and more importantly then they do something about it.

2) In a capitalist/free-market society we preserve what is profitable to preserve. People need food, and water, and clothes, and roofs that don't leak, and medicine. To satisfy these needs they seek to procure money in a variety of ways. If I can feed my self and my family by preserving the forest then I will. If providing for me and mine means burning that forest down...where's the torch? Regulated harvesting of resources gives a direct economic incentive to preserve the areas where those resources come from. If a person's living is directly tied to the livelihood and wellbeing of animals such as a gamekeeper, or safari guide, or farmer those people are going to work hard to preserve those animals. If those animals are a hindrance to a person's living that person is going to work hard to eliminate those animals. Simple mathematics of survival. If the people where these animals live can make more money by preserving and using these animals than by simply destroying the animals they will. The trick here is encouraging a sustainable level of harvest and not letting greed overtake good management.

Bottom line I think PETA cares more about their abstract ideal than they do about the reality of human behavior and have a very skewed idea of our place in the ecosystem. As for their looking out for reptiles and amphibians and anything that isn't cute and furry? Not one bit.

 

[SamanthaLovely]

Personally I really take issue with PETA.

They are against the keeping of "exotic" animals of any sort. Their definition of such includes; reptiles, parrots, hedgehogs and sugar gliders amongst others. To this end they will happily misrepresent and occlude the facts which to me is just as dishonest and reprehensible as the sellers who will happily lie to you about the provenance and care of an animal all to make a sale.

Just a few highlights;

"they(snakes) require at least a 30 gallon tank". This is a load of crap and in the case of some snakes damaging. Snakes need an enclosure appropriate to their size a good rule of thumb is minimum 2/3 the total body length, ideally at least 1.5. However an excessively large enclosure can cause problems with some snakes as it can make heat & humidity management extremely difficult, and cause undue stress.

"They're(iguanas) also strict vegans". I wonder if they can smell what they're shoveling? I've worked with Iguana iguana, as well as multiple Cyclura species and all of them benefit from a degree of animal protein in their diets, especially when young. I have thoroughly enjoyed the sight of a newly rehabilitated baby Green Iguana chasing and devouring crickets.

(geckos) "require a very particular environment without the slightest variance in temperature. They feed on insects and baby mice." This statement can't even be made about the most commonly kept geckos; Leopards & Cresteds. Off the top of my head I can think of 4 species that can eat pinky mice, none of which need to, and any Rhacodactylus or Phelsuma keeper will remind you about the virtues of fruit matter in their animal's diets. My experience has been that a regular 20 degree variation in temperature can do wonders for the appetites and libidos of many gecko species, and I can't think of any species that would do well without at least a 10 degree variance between hot and cool within their enclosure.

All told PETA's Caring for Reptiles article is riddled with inaccuracies. I would say that for a group who purports to advocate for animals it is the grossest failure of duty to be propagating this degree of erroneous information. If you take the time to peruse their website you'll find plenty more of this sort of dishonesty.

Now as to whether or not PETA looks out for reptiles and amphibians I would have to say no. Aside from propagating false and misleading information about keeping herps, they ignore some very basic principles of human behavior in their approach.

1) We fear what we don't know. I work with children and I cannot tell you how many kids and parents I meet who are terrified and disgusted by reptiles and amphibians right up until they meet one for the first time. I am always delighted to watch the slow dawning of fascination and then delight on their faces when they meet one of my geckos or snakes for the first time. Not only is it personally gratifying I know I've created another person who will now avoid running over a snake on the road, and maybe give some money to further research and habitat preservation. Captive animals play a vital role in the conservation of their wild brethren by acting as ambassadors. Kids may not care about snakes losing their homes in Brazil, but if you tell them their beloved Mr. Wiggles cousins are dying because the rainforest is being cut down then they care, and more importantly then they do something about it.

2) In a capitalist/free-market society we preserve what is profitable to preserve. People need food, and water, and clothes, and roofs that don't leak, and medicine. To satisfy these needs they seek to procure money in a variety of ways. If I can feed my self and my family by preserving the forest then I will. If providing for me and mine means burning that forest down...where's the torch? Regulated harvesting of resources gives a direct economic incentive to preserve the areas where those resources come from. If a person's living is directly tied to the livelihood and wellbeing of animals such as a gamekeeper, or safari guide, or farmer those people are going to work hard to preserve those animals. If those animals are a hindrance to a person's living that person is going to work hard to eliminate those animals. Simple mathematics of survival. If the people where these animals live can make more money by preserving and using these animals than by simply destroying the animals they will. The trick here is encouraging a sustainable level of harvest and not letting greed overtake good management.

Bottom line I think PETA cares more about their abstract ideal than they do about the reality of human behavior and have a very skewed idea of our place in the ecosystem. As for their looking out for reptiles and amphibians and anything that isn't cute and furry? Not one bit.

You do bring up an excellent point about children and reptiles. My little cousins thought lizards were slimy and gross until I showed them Kalahari. She's like a soft little caterpillar. They love them. "WOW How'd you get six of them?" It's sweet.

 

[DJreptile]

Yup. In my experience kids and critters tend to get along very well together.

 

[thorrshamri]

"Animal rights" activists such as ALF (nothing to do with the hairy cat-eating puppet- Animal Liberation Front) is on the list of terrorist organizations in many countries worldwide.

My experience on the French side with "animal rights" movements must be similar to the reality of it in the US and other countries. Mostly young or very young people, with a fair amount of young girls (no sexism here, just a fact) who are mainly driven by emotional motivations.

On the biggest French animal rights/adoptions forum, I did my best to give advice to owners of rescued reptiles. Still they hardly tolerated me, forbidding me for example to post eggs, hatchlings, or anything connected to reptile breeding. It seemed they made zero difference between dogs and cats breeders and reptile breeders. Their point was that there were already too many abandonned animals and breeders of any species were just BAD.

They also did not realize than by rescuing certain protected species without any legal structure behind them and doing it, often with wrong methods and knowledge, is also illegal. They don't seem to care violating laws in that case, which is another source of worry. Just as an example, red-eared sliders are considered here as an invasive species, harmful to the native freshwater fauna, and has long been forbidden as pets, not only that, but transporting such animals (except to a vet), selling them or keeping them home can cause these people to get huge fines or even being jailed.

As Graham said, they also make me laugh in a way, yet I take PETA and other similar organization as a danger. Not only they use donations to euthanasize animals rather than trying to help them, but they also seem to be prone to very aggressive and violent propaganda.

It makes sense to be against animal cruelty, especially unnecessary cruelty such as what happens in Spain with bulls (this happens too in the South of France), excesses about hunting wild fauna and so forth. Now it is a totally different point of view to consider that anyone should be a vegetarian. Their scientific justifications contradict the most commonly admitted theories: for thousands of milleniums, men and their ancestors have consumed large amounts of meat. Humanity did cause some species to disappear such as mammoths, but now that we have animals made for our own consumption, what's the problem?

Threatening labs which are forced to use experiments on animals is also one bad side of these guys. Without such research, would their dear dogs and cats have proper food, proper medecine? I don't think so. And when it comes to human health, using rats or mice does not shock me. Some engineers here were blackmailed along with their families just for doing the job they were asked to do and some companies were also violently attacked. Ecoterrorism is a reality, face it. And one thing is for certain, they DO NOT like us reptile breeders. In fact, they have either wrong conceptions or partial information about reptile keeping and breeding, but they will not make any effort to open a dialogue and reckon when they are wrong.

"Keeping reptiles in glass enclosures is inhumane and cruel, better leave them in the wild". I have heard this many times, just probably like you guys. The most illogical point is that they prefer to see species disappear in the wild than letting us save what can be saved at that point among endangered species. This contradiction shows they are NOT the animal lovers they claim to be. Just because they cannot stand the idea of captivity for "wild" species.

I see them as a danger for the hobby and also for the society at large. Their methods to recruit people are based on mass communication, appeals to donations, and a well-worked speech brainwashing many young people. That is not far from methods used by religious (dangerous) sects in my opinion. I have often heard from them than a human life was worthless compared to an animal life...

Well, if any of these guys tries to touch my geckos, (or even worse, force me to eat salad :lol: ) they will have to run very fast and wear hammer-proof armors. :fight::evil: