Tokay traders still at large...

[tombo46]

I am getting an increasing amount of e.mails every week from people looking to sell their Tokays and even asking for advice on how to make them heavier and where to sell them. It's getting worrying as I would have expected this problem to decrease as the myth of them being a miracle cure started to deminish.

I used to get an e.mail every couple of weeks or so but the frequency has steadily increased to the point where I am now getting 2 - 3 a WEEK!

Does anyone know of any progress has been made in trying to stop this? I know Tokays were considered for protection under CITES but after several e.mails I still haven't managed to find out where they stand.

 

[thorrshamri]

So far, they are not at all a priority for the CITES and are not listed in the IUCN neither.

 

[billewicz]

It's sad that in Indo-China really big Tokay are considered an aphrodisiac. These beliefs are thousands of years old and will not go away anytime soon.

Add to that the pharmaceutical industry's interest in a cure for AID's and a willingness to try anything and you have a smuggler's black market golden child.

There had been some first hand documentation of jumbo sized Tokay collected in a small region and now everyone thinks that all Tokay can get that big.

How big? Well over 1000 grams for these jumbo 'morphs'. But as long as there is a bounty of thousands of dollars on these guys, we're not going to see them anytime soon because anything bigger than 450 grams starts to fetch big money.:roll:

Some have been found to be injected with silicone or force-fed chicken livers so they will weigh more.:sad:

There is also the human, (mostly male) preoccupation with really big reptiles.:evil: So I too am asked all the time about my biggest Tokay.

Some of my boys are pushing 350 grams. Some might be bigger but I just don't care what they weigh, but I will admit they are impressive. Oh and so is their bite!:fight:

Because Tokay are harvested for human consumption in Indonesia by the millions each year, CITI's restrictions may be considered to manage the population. But none are in place.

Until then, the cheap, poor beat-up Tokay will continue to be used as 'filler' by reptile exporters to make some extra cash.

 

[MC gecko]

Here is another picture showing what you're talking billewicz, the tokay are used for their aphrodisiac'' juice''


Mathieu Bigras

 

[Koghis]

@ billewicz: I know that you are one of the most experienced persons when it comes to Tokays and I don't doubt that you might be right. I still have to ask you about some more information or details about these ominous 1000g Tokays. I would love to know a little more about this. Especially since I know a little about leachianus where the largest animals in captivity max out at 15-16 inches and up to 500 grams. I can't really understand how a whole population of Tokays that normal stay far under that can weigh twice the size of the largest species. These Tokays have to be either extremely large in the sense of long or extremely obese. I hope you have some information for me don't understand me wrong I don't doubt that it is possible but I want to know more, when the largest known species of geckos maxes out at 500, how can some Tokays reach twice that weight in their normal habitat? Without being 24 inches long?

Best regards,



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Marauderhex]

All I know is that I would snatch up a 24" tokay in a heartbeat.

 

[Riverside Reptiles]

I don't believe that there are any real 1,000 gram tokays. I have yet to see a real picture of one. Every picture I've seen of a "giant" tokay were either faked with Photoshop, distorted by the perspective of the way the photo was taken, or filled with silicone.

There certainly are some big tokays out there. And they can sell for very high prices. But mostly, the tokays that are used are average in size. These huge prices are thrown out there to lure people into thinking that they might get rich from collecting wild tokays to sell. And to most of the natives who live in these third world countries, a couple dollars per gecko IS a large amount of cash compared to what they might make for a days worth of labor at a real job.

 

[Koghis]

I don't believe that there are any real 1,000 gram tokays. I have yet to see a real picture of one. Every picture I've seen of a "giant" tokay were either faked with Photoshop, distorted by the perspective of the way the photo was taken, or filled with silicone.

There certainly are some big tokays out there. And they can sell for very high prices. But mostly, the tokays that are used are average in size. These huge prices are thrown out there to lure people into thinking that they might get rich from collecting wild tokays to sell. And to most of the natives who live in these third world countries, a couple dollars per gecko IS a large amount of cash compared to what they might make for a days worth of labor at a real job.

Thank you, this was what i thought as well. Glad to hear it from the other very experienced tokay guy on GU besides billewicz.

I will anyways take any pictures that someone can provide of real giant tokays. Just can not believe that there are such heavy ones out there, weight correlates directly with body length when it comes to such big geckos and to pick up the leachianus example again, i don't think that much more than 550g is possible without a much higher snout to vent length.

Regards,

 

[billewicz]

For the longest time, I thought the same as Ethan about all the 'photoshop' Tokay ads. And I still agree with what we are seeing on the internet.

When I had this discussion with a person who collects gecko from all corners of the world for scientific documentation, he mentioned that one of his colleagues had in fact found a small pocket of exceptionally large Tokay while in Indonesia collecting other gecko species.

It is assumed that some of these specimens were collected by locals and have become the basis for the 'Monster-sized Tokay legend'.

(I'm going from memory. I'd have to did up the e-mail with all the persons and locations noted with-in. But the first person mentioned is known by all in the gecko community worldwide and I trust his story to be true.)

Aside from the fake ads, Tokay do appear to come in different sizes out of Indonesia. I have several 'calico' that do not get any bigger than about 70 grams. Then I have several olive males that are pushing 350 grams. So there is some genetic size differences.

What seems for sure is that as long as these inflated bounties are in place for large Tokay, we will not see any exported into the pet trade, unless as my contact put it, they can get some out under their collection permits for science.

 

[Heinz]

My history with jumbo Tokay's

I am new to this forum but not new to herping .
jumbo / large Tokay's are real

My history with jumbo Tokay's
The jumbo Tokay's I picked up came from Bangladesh
this was years after the Bangladesh Liberation War
poverty and famine following the war .
lead many .people to sell off there captive and precious Tokay's
a large number of jumbo Tokay's continued into the pet trade . thru the mid 1980's

In 1979 i purchased a 18inch jumbo Tokay
.[with a regen tail ] ..Mad Max
and in 1980 I picked up a 20inch jumbo Tokay .. Yoda
sadly I never produced any young .
both were male .
Jumbo Tokay husbandry was the same as my current normal 10-12inch Tokay's
thou in the 80's we were using heating bricks [fish heater in a brick ] not heating pads
and they were hiding behind a hanging carpet and not in a PVC tube

Shortly after I found out you can't house 2 male jumbo Tokay's together . .[1980 who knew? ] I was bit by 18inch Mad Max
thru the leather masonry gloves he almost
degloved my right index finger. worst bite of my life and I have been dealing with monitors for over 30 + years .
Of recent years the largest Tokay I have seen
is in a youtube clip 4min 15 sec in ..
จ้อจี้ บุกหมู่บ้านเลี้ยงตุ๊กแก
ON you tube
it looks like its about 8-9in. stv and 9 in tail .
this video is in thai .
other large Tokay's this video is in thai
in ชาวแจ้ห่มเลี้ยงตุ๊กแกขายรายได้ดี
ON you tube

My concern is that over the past 30+ years
jumbo Tokay populations in Bangladesh and Thailand
have shrunk and that the gen. pool out there is to small to maintain a wild population
this crazy idea that Tokay's have pharmaceutical value and interest
needs to change .
A counter to pharmaceutical interest
would be zoo's
zoo hetpatoligests would love to work with them but Tokay's make for poor zoo display animals . nocturnal, and generally hiding .
or protected status for jumbo Tokay's but there not recognized.

If were lucky in a few years jumbo Tokay's could end up like the
Crested gecko thought extinct rediscovered in 1994
most people have never seen a Tokay over 12 inches .
and a 20inch jumbo Tokay is a most impressive sight .

 

[bawner00]

:shock: