Does my Tokay look healthy?

[zuper8]

I have had my Tokay for over a year now, I got her when she was supposed to be 6-8 months. This is the only reptile I have ever had, so I would love to know what more experienced reptile keepers think of her condition. I am especially wondering about her weight, I pore over all the threads here all the time, and the advice/description for a healthy weight seems to vary a bit. I was afraid maybe she was a little fat, but I don't really know. She is a good eater as you can probably see.

By the way, these are amazing animals!! I can see why someone would be obsessed with Tokays. Her name is Maya and she is so wonderful to have around.







Her looking at the camera lol. She always has to check everything out.

 

[Aimless]

she's a big healthy girl. I don't think she's a heart-attack candidate yet, lol, but it's hard on their livers to be heavy, just like with humans. you might scale back her food a little, especially now that she's an adult.

I wouldn't consider her in any sort of health-crisis, but she could drop a little off the top and would probably live longer for it.

I assume you're not going to breed her any time soon? if you were going to breed her this season, you'd want her on the high end of ideal weight.

 

[Ingo]

Looks healthy...but does it have to live in that tiny tank?

 

[zuper8]

It's an exoterra 18x18x24, is that too small? I was told by members here that it was an okay size when I got it...

I started letting a few crickets loose in her tank instead of putting them in the tub like usual, she is already very active but maybe hunting for her food would be good mental stimulation and keep her moving. As you can see in the photos I always have fresh veggies/ water source for loose crickets in the cage. Good idea/ bad idea?

 

[Aimless]

I don't see a problem with that, as long as they don't get icky (fruits & veggies). that's a good way to keep the crickets nutritious, I suppose.

if you feed any worms (especially meal worms, giant worms, super worms) I'd cut those out. they tend to be pretty high in fat. butterworms, horn worms, and phoenix worms I think are better nutritionally to mix it up and give an occasional treat. Herve (thorrshammeri) has posted up some tables with nutritional info specific to different feeder species. you might consider digging into some of the feeder threads?

crickets (gutloaded) are great. roaches are also excellent. either way, if you're willing to tolerate an occasional loose bug, IMO it's good to let your Tokay hunt their food. they're naturally pretty efficient predators, and if you can manage to see them hunt it's pretty awesome.

 

[Ingo]

I do see a problem. Tokays are large and active animals, wich do jump an run. In that tank, the tokay can not even run or jump a distance of twice its size. Thats simply torture to live there for the lizard.
65 tall or better 100g should be the minimum for an adult. In fact, in Germany such sizes are recommended by the government for geckos of that size and considered to be on the small side by the gecko communitiy.
You also see a difference in behavior between tiny and appropriately sized tanks.

 

[zuper8]

Thanks for the advice, Aimless. I will let her hunt for a bit, I change out the fruit/ veggies for the bugs every other day anyways. I give her crickets only. I had a dubia roach colony last year but she found those really difficult to hunt. Most of the time they would go uneaten.

Ingo, thank you for enlightening me, I had no idea and definitely a lot of other hobbyists have no idea either. I would not have wasted the money on the tank had I known it was unhealthy for her. I am going to the Massachusetts Reptile Expo next month and will try to find a good deal on a large tank then, I was going to buy her a bunch of presents anyway! I know she would love a bigger territory. I have always wished she could live loose in the house but it is too cold where I live.

 

[Ingo]

Maybe this could also be of interest for you:
http://www.geckosunlimited.com/community/geckos-herps-news-media/68851-my-geckos-homestory-tv.html

 

[zuper8]

Wow, your vivariums are an inspiration! Maya deserves to have that much territory. I can see what you mean by differences in behavior too, my gecko never gapes or tries to bite me when I hold her but I see that might change with a much bigger tank. I hope not though, I love how trusting she is.

Before I take the plunge on a 100g tank (found one for $152), I am going to need to figure out how to heat it. In the summer, I don't use AC so the ambient house temps are upper 70's and humid. So summer is easy. But in the winter, the drafty old house I rent can barely maintain 65F. I have to use a 150w CHE, two heat pads (one underneath), and heat cord on the sides of the tank to maintain upper 80s in the tank and as you can imagine it is already a struggle to maintain good humidity with that big heat emitter. It dries everything right up. So what do you recommend to heat such a large enclosure as a 100 gallon during a New England winter? I need to figure that out first.

 

[MdngtRain]

I used to live in CT, and had to heat some larger snake tanks. If you get a tank that is made for reptiles (as opposed to a fish tank), they tend to be better at holding heat. If you have the time, I would suggest converting a larger piece of furniture. Wood helps hold the heat, but you would need to either line it with pond liner or seal it somehow (or line with plexi or glass). Only have vent areas on the sides to promote circulation, but not really allow much of the heat to escape. Larger enclosures can be heated using heat panels and/or CHE's. I would suggest the use of a humidifier or automatic misting system to keep it humid enough in the winter. I used to do that with my chameleons while living there. I have since moved to south florida, and don't really have to worry about the heat or humidity, but am scouring craigslist for appropriate armoires to convert to some cages...
I think the cage people that have the huge display at the new york shows also go to the Mass Expo. They have some nice-sized arboreal cages available and they make them pretty well. They are a bit costly, but make really nice display cages. I had my eye on one for my halmahera gecko, but their prices went up between the time I saw the cage and saved "enough" money to get it

 

[zuper8]

awesome, thank you SO much for the advice on wintertime gecko-keeping, I spent the whole winter trying to get it right... I am planning on getting a humidifier for the room she's in a maybe a space heater too. I would mist so heavily that the tank would be nearly flooded but the humidity would never last long under that 150w heat emitter. Love the furniture idea, I do remember seeing cages like that at last year's expo. Now that I know they insulate better I will definitely see about picking one up.

 

[billewicz]

Thanks for the advice, Aimless. I will let her hunt for a bit, I change out the fruit/ veggies for the bugs every other day anyways. I give her crickets only. I had a dubia roach colony last year but she found those really difficult to hunt. Most of the time they would go uneaten.

Ingo, thank you for enlightening me, I had no idea and definitely a lot of other hobbyists have no idea either. I would not have wasted the money on the tank had I known it was unhealthy for her. I know she would love a bigger territory. I have always wished she could live loose in the house but it is too cold where I live.

Yeah, Tokay like prey that moves and Dubia just sit and borrow. Let her hunt, she could use the exercise and carrots and dandelion greens are good for keeping crickets hydrated and with good nutrition.

As for enclosure size, bigger/taller is always better for Tokay. But then there are several considerations as to what to get or build for their enclosures. Other than the 36" tall Exo Terra's, you'd have to have a custom enclosure built at some point.

Generally speaking, a fresh import or juvenile Tokay can be quite happy in a 24" Exo Terra for maybe the first year. This size is also readily available at national pet stores. Some Indonesian Tokay morphs stay really small and could do fine in a 24" as well. I have several adult Tokay in 24" enclosures. These animals are typically 7" to 8" long, max.

But really, after about the first year most Tokay will need more headroom. On the other end of the spectrum, some of my males are 14" long and they're in 48" tall custom enclosures.

So, yes it might be time to move up to a custom Tokay House which can be less expensive than the 36" Exo!

 

[Riverside Reptiles]

A 55 gallon tank turned vertical would be a cheap way to give your tokay a lot more vertical space. You can get a used 55 for next to nothing on places like craigslist. Here's a pic of one done vertical. Obviously in this pic it just has some bamboo sitting in it but no in inhabitants .

 

[XoVictoryXo]

She is beautiful! <3

 

[zuper8]

I went to the Massachusetts Reptile Expo last Sunday, and came home with this!!



I got it from a nice guy who builds his own tanks, he said she would be really happy in there. I bet she will like it a lot better, it looks like twice the size of her old tank. I'm also excited that it's wooden, as I have been told it will help with humidity and insulation in the winter.

I just need to silicone all the joints, and I made a tray out of acrylic glass for my drainage layer. What do you guys think? Is this a humane size?

 

[Marauderhex]

It looks nice and large, what are the dimensions of it?

 

[billewicz]

Nice. It looks 36" x 36" x 12". That should be fun to set-up, enjoy!

 

[RuselBro]

A 55 gallon tank turned vertical would be a cheap way to give your tokay a lot more vertical space. You can get a used 55 for next to nothing on places like craigslist. Here's a pic of one done vertical. Obviously in this pic it just has some bamboo sitting in it but no in inhabitants .

I really like this idea with the Wooden Frame, Can you please post a Picture of how the Door look's and work's?
For my next Vertical Natural Planted Viv I was going to buy a 40G Breeder Criiter Cage with the Sliding Screen lid, and take 80% of the Screen out and replace it with Plexi Glass or Acrylic, but I'm really liking this Idea with the 50G.

 

[MauricesExoticPets]

I think most people read 'minimum' size enclosure and instantly think that is the correct forever enclosure size.

another way to look at minimum size is to relate it to a prison cell, yes you can keep a human in a cell maybe no larger than 6'wide x10'long x8'tall for 20 years but that is punishment.

A modest room is 12'wide x12'long x8'high and you still aren't going to want to stay in there for the remainder of your life.

Now you have an idea of what minimum and small mean in terms of housing size.

A large enclosure for any of the Gekko genus is something on the order of 4' wide x 4' tall x 2' deep.

A huge enclosure would be doubling the width and height values while the depth can stay the same for functionality (you should be always able to get to the most distant parts of the enclosures interior).

Can it all be done on a smaller scale? Yes it can. Is it cruel to the geckos, that is something we can certainly debate.

In my opinion there is a certain level of trade off, you will miss out on some natural behaviors and that is something many people are not willing to do. On the other hand some people are not wanting to see these same natural behaviors. Enclosure size does play a big part in what you will see.

My dog has the run of the house and yard, an area far smaller than any wild canine would have access to in the wild, then again I am not interested in seeing her revert to her wild state either.

I think Ingo is more of a naturalist, interested in the animals natural behaviors more than the average keeper is at least.

I am of the opinion that I am not a person who will ever see the release into the wild of the animals I keep, so I am not particularly worried about maintaining wild like behaviors. It is not possible to do so anyway so long as the animals we keep are able to observe us and us them, that interaction alone dulls natural behaviors no matter how large an enclosure.

In general though, the larger the enclosure the more natural it can be made. And in so far as size goes you will be less tempted to accumulate all that many reptiles and have more time to focus on the few you do have.

Maurice

 

[zuper8]

Your prison cell metaphor strikes a chord with me.... I purchased this Gecko off of Craigslist a little more than a year ago, because I have loved and been fascinated with lizards my entire life. At first I thought I was doing right by her: getting her out of that smokey house and the 10 gallon that smelled like an ashtray, with nothing but a fake plant in it and uneaten worms.

Every day since, I have seen how wild and intelligent and full of life this animal is, and every day I see that she is just a prisoner. No matter how big and beautiful her tank is, it is just a bigger prison. She deserves to be free. Yet, I cannot free her, because my house gets too cold in the New England winter, and I can't release her anywhere in the U.S. because she is non-native.

By wanting to understand and enjoy being with a reptile, I am now faced with the interesting reality that I have signed up to keep a prisoner. I would love to see her every day for the rest of her life, but how can she be happy this way? I am glad I took Maya from her old home, but I wish she could have just stayed in Indonesia for the rest of her days. She will never be happy here.