Female Leopard Gecko has not eaten or pooped in 4 weeks

[cricket4u]

dbott67~ The reason I asked in the other thread if you have offered other insects aside from mealworms is sometimes if their stomach is not feeling well, they may avoid insects that may cause further irritation. If possible some silkworms would do her some good and I'm sure she'll be excited to see something new. Hornworms would be okay as well, however their is very little nutritional information available. Silkworms contain an enzyme called serrapeptase which has been found to work as a anti-inflammatory painkiller. When hydration is a problem, I prefer the hornworms.

Elizabeth, now you know why sometimes I prefer one over the other.

 

[dbott67]

Excellent... thank you!

Our local Petsmart only has limited selection of feeders (crickets, mealworms, butter worms and wax worms), however, there is another place that occasionally gets silk and hornworms. Last time I was in they had some horn worms but they were massive, so I took a pass. I'll check tomorrow after work and see if they've got a new shipment.

 

[cricket4u]

Excellent... thank you!

Our local Petsmart only has limited selection of feeders (crickets, mealworms, butter worms and wax worms), however, there is another place that occasionally gets silk and hornworms. Last time I was in they had some horn worms but they were massive, so I took a pass. I'll check tomorrow after work and see if they've got a new shipment.

I just realized you live in Canada. Perhaps this is in your area? I really like their website.

MEALWORMS (Tenebrio Molitor)

 

[Thin Lizzy]

I'm in Canada as well and our local Petsmart carries Hornworms. They keep them in the back so you have to ask for them.

 

[dbott67]

Hi cricket4u,

Yes, I'm in Canada (southern Ontario). I'm about an hours drive from the site you listed, but they offer shipping so I might order a small shipment of silk worms. I went to a couple places today after work and was only able to find some hornworms at Petsmart. I picked up 3 smaller ones, as well as some dried leopard gecko food (small dried flies --- just mist with water).

Mushu took a lick of the hornworm but was otherwise uninterested. I left it in her viv for about 10 minutes and then removed it. I'll put it in again tomorrow evening. I also put a small amount of the freeze-dried leopard gecko food out and a very small dollop a few inches in front of her. I came back a few minutes later and she had one of the flies stuck to her chin. I'm not sure if she ate any, but it looks like she at least checked them out. I've also still got a bowl with a meal worm, a wax worm and a butter worm sitting in her viv just in case she gets the midnight munchies.

I've also got a cricket bouncing around in there. I placed one in a couple of days ago and couldn't find it, so she may have eaten it. Of course, it may have just crawled into the sphagnum moss, but on the off chance she did eat it, I wanted to make something available.

The good news is that she's defecated 3x in the last week. As mentioned previously, I did hand feed her a meal worm, so it just may be the remnants of it or possibly the missing cricket from above. The most recent one was quite small, but definitely a little more normal looking than the last 2. Hopefully, the anti-biotics have started to kick in and is clearing up whatever type of infection she might have (respiratory, digestive, intestinal).

She's also been hanging outside of her hides a bit more. She was basking on the tiles in the warmest spot between the humid hide and the warm hide last night. This morning and when I came home from work she was sitting on top of her humid hide.

 

[cricket4u]

It's very unusual for a leo to refuse a hornworm. What size was the worm? Unless it was too big? I wouldn't feed dead insects. If possible make a video of you offering the hornworm. I would love to watch her reaction to food. Did you ever mention to the vet that you have never provide any supplements? I'm also curious about air temps? Do you have a thermometer with a probe that you can dangle in the air about half way next to the heat bulb?

 

[cricket4u]

It's very unusual for a leo to refuse a hornworm. What size was the worm? Unless it was too big? I wouldn't feed dead insects. If possible make a video of you offering the hornworm. I would love to watch her reaction to food. Did you ever mention to the vet that you have never provide any supplements? I'm also curious about air temps? Do you have a thermometer with a probe that you can dangle in the air about half way next to the heat bulb?

I wanted to mention that I am fully aware that you have only provided plain calcium. Many would be surprised to hear that I have seen leopard geckos up to the age of 3 without any signs of calcium deficiency who were never provided d3, only plain calcium. This is the reason I have always wondered their true need for d3. On the other hand, I have seen leos who instead develop Vitamin A deficiency. Quick true story:

A 3 year old leo suddenly loses it's appetite. The vets initial thought was vitamin D deficiency due to the owner only providing plain calcium. The gecko did not respond to the d3 and continued to refuse food. A radiograph was taken, no impaction, bone density was normal. To make a long story short, the final diagnosis was an infection secondary to Vitamin A deficiency. After some time of receiving a liquid form of Vitamin A along with an antibiotic to treat the infection, the gecko began to eat and recovered.

This is why I asked if you mentioned to the vet, that you have never provided multivitamins. If you were providing a better diet including a gut load enriched with Vitamin A, this may not be of much concern. Anyway, I'll be waiting for your replies to the questions above.

 

[dbott67]

Here's a video:

Mushu and the horn worm - YouTube

These were the 3 smallest hornworms that Petsmart had. Personally, I thought they looked pretty big for Mushu, but I figured I might as well give them a try. I removed the horn worm after a few minutes and will try again tomorrow morning.

As for the dried Leopard Gecko food (Zoo Med's Leopard Gecko Food - Sale - Reptile - PetSmart), it was merely to see if she would try it.

I don't have an extra thermometer with heat probe, but I'm getting very consistent surface readings with the IR gun. I've been measuring multiple times per day and all results are very consistent with initial findings --- see my heat map at the bottom of page 2 of this thread. If I were to use the probe from the HydroFarm, should I dangle it from the edge of the reflector on the CHE down approx. 6"? What sort of air temps should I be seeing?

Edit: When I took Mushu to the vet, I did provide a full background of her care, diet, vivarium, including no D3 supplements. I also discussed some of the recent changes to her vivarium to try to ensure temps & humidity were within the proper ranges.

 

[cricket4u]

I see one huge mistake. You are offering food with a bright light overhead. Try with the lights off.

Also the air temp reading is very important especially while on antibiotics. She cannot afford to become dehydrated. Some leos will also not eat if the air temps are too high. You will have to make sure the Hydrofarm thermostat probe is accurate. I guess you missed Elizabeth's post.

88-93 F (31-34 C) ground temp at warm end inside the warm dry hide
no greater than 85 F (29.5 C) air temp - 4 inches above ground on the warm end
no greater than 75 F (24.5 C) air temp - 4 inches above ground on the cool end

Leave the UTH on 24/7. Can turn off overhead heating at night.

She has this, I don't feel well look to her, poor pretty girl. She actually looks heavier in this video then before. I would offer her one hornworm in the dark and that's it for at least 2-3 more days. The fat in her tail has reached max. Just make sure she remains hydrated. A drop or 2 of water on the tip of her mouth a day would be good.

 

[dbott67]

Actually, the light was only on in order for me to video her. Under normal conditions, her viv is dark throughout the night and lit by UVB bulb and ambient room / window light during the day. The UVB brightness is nowhere near like a basking light --- it's not very intense at all.

I did see Elizabeth's post about the HydroFarm probe and verified the probe reading on the substrate with the IR gun. Both were the same reading, so I'm very confident that the substrate temps are where they should be.

I'm also confident with the analog thermometer readings. Air temp @ 4" above substrate in warm end is reading about 82 F and when I use the IR probe on the housing of the analog gauge it reads the same.

 

[dbott67]

FWIW, after giving her the anti-biotics this morning, I put a hornworm in her viv and left it for the day. We'll see what happens over the course of the day.

She actually looks heavier in this video then before

She must be sneaking out to KFC (Kentucky Fried Crickets) at night!

 

[cricket4u]

:lol: There can be other explanations. It's nerve wrecking-enough administering medication and waiting, so just take it day by day and allow the antibiotics to do there job. I'm glad to hear the temps are good.

In regards to the UVB which I provide as well, it is much brighter to them than it appears to our human eyes.

I forgot to mention that the size of the worm is slightly bigger than I would feel comfortable with. I've noticed some females are a bit more careful with the size of their prey than super greedy big headed males. Just thought I'd mention that size may also be at fault for refusal.

 

[dbott67]

Just to keep everyone updated, Mushu finished her anti-biotics today but still hasn't eaten anything. Hopefully whatever infection she had has now cleared up.

I also picked up a good quality scale and will be monitoring her weight regularly to make sure that she's not losing too much weight. As of today (May 23), she tipped the scales at 68 grams.

I've continued to research leopard geckos with similar appetite loss and no noticeable weight loss and have come across a few threads by breeders that have stated they have leos that will go a couple of months without eating. As long as they're not losing weight and their husbandry is correct, many folks are saying it's not unusual for captive-bred leopard geckos to brumate, even when temps & lights remain constant year round. They note that there could be other factors including geographical location, barometric pressure, outside light cycle, natural instinct, etc. Below is a snippet from one post I found:

...no one turned their temps down to induce brumation. Like I said, I don't turn the temps down at all but my adults still all go through varying degrees of brumation. One male totally stopped eating for 3 1/2 months, he did still come out & hang out in his tank every few days, no visible weight loss, just no interest in eating, though he did continue to drink. And I do still offer food every few days until they start eating normally again. Most of the others just slowed way down on eating, going from eating every day or so to just once every 7-10 days. They too spent much more time in their hides, some I would only see when they came out to eat. So with mine, I have to believe it is the natural light cycle that induces their brumation, it could also depend on where you live geographically. And yes, I've tried using artificial lighting to keep this from happening but it had no affect at all. I didn't like my male not eating for that long of a period and tried turning his temps up to the 93-95 degree range, once again no affect. I tried Acidophiliz+ in his water, no affect, I tried Jumpstart, no affect (just made a mess all over me) LOL I'm telling ya, some Leos simply go into brumation to some degree naturally and I truly believe there's nothing you can do about it.

I do agree, I would never purposely put a Leo into brumation, it just isn't necessary. Though this still seems to be a very popular thing to do over in the U.K., I don't know why. If given a choice I wouldn't want mine to go through this, it gets nerve-racking waiting & worrying about them until they start to eat normally again

The outdoor weather around my neck of the woods was pretty cold this spring and it's only recently started to warm up in the last few weeks. Even with the warmer weather, the temps are all over the place. Earlier this week it was 29-30 C and humid and over the course of a few hours today it's gone from mid-20s C down to 12 C.

Mushu's vivarium temps have been pretty stable over the last few weeks and the day/night timers are currently set to 12h/12h. I'm going to try increasing the amount of light to 14h to see if it makes a difference. I'm also going to avoid handling her for a while, as I'm sure she's pretty stressed out from all of the handling when I was giving her the anti-biotics.

 

[cricket4u]

Well, I've explained how I do not agree with what is posted in between so many times. You will have to drop the temps very low in order to induce brumation. Breeders have too many geckos, therefore cannot provide a properly controlled environment for all. Unless your room temperature is stable(thermostatically controlled), there's no way the enclosure temp will be stable. They can not shut their body down in the temperatures provided in captivity. I just want to inform you that hepatic lipidosis has been observed in many leo necropsies. The majority of these geckos were allowed to go off food for months.

Warning: When she begins eating make sure to start slowly by offering small amounts for the first 2 weeks. They have inducible digestion processes which means that when allowed to go off food for this long or longer, they lose the ability to produce digestive enzymes necessary to absorb food. It also makes them more susceptible to liver disease, therefore it's never a good idea to allow them to go off food for this long.

Just a reminder above. The feces was abnormal, so did the vet perform a culture and sensitivity on the feces?

There are many factors when considering antibiotics. Hydration status, patient body condition, route of administering, ect. At times a combination of drugs must be used and prescribed in different intervals depending on the diagnosis itself. Some antibiotics are less effective than others against certain bacteria. Doses too high can kill the gecko or damage kidneys, under dosing or stopping the medication too soon can lead to resistance.

My point is to make sure the vet has performed the necessary diagnostics, treated the actual cause with the proper drug.

 

[dbott67]

Well, I've explained how I do not agree with what is posted in between so many times. You will have to drop the temps very low in order to induce brumation.

I understand what you're saying and truly appreciate your input & advice, however, according to a number of posts/articles I've read, this is not necessarily true:

Reptilian Brumation

... Keep in mind that because your animals are in captivity, does not mean that they do not receive subtle cues from the outside world.

...Many temperate, desert, and sub-tropical herps will become less active and feed less in the winter, even when normal ambient and basking temps are provided (dbott67 emphasis). I do not adjust the husbandry of my bearded dragons from season to season. They are provided with the same photo-period and heating protocol year round. Yet year after year they begin losing interest in food in late fall, and remain in this psuedo-brumation until spring...

...The above anecdote should provide some credibility to the idea that reptiles are going to brumate or not regardless of what you do.

I also stumbled across another post that was very similar to mine, where after taking his leo to the vet and having the gecko given a clean bill of health it was determined by the vet that the gecko was brumating.

In my case, I've taken her to the vet and was told that she had a respiratory infection, but otherwise looked healthy (no impaction, nothing in the GI tract, no eggs, good weight, clear eyes). Her meds were administered as prescribed (orally, twice daily, 2 drops per dose, for 7 days).

Granted, a fecal culture was not done, but I did show a picture of it to the vet and he did not seem too concerned. I will be scheduling a follow-up exam in the next week or so and will hopefully be able to get a fecal sample.

 

[cricket4u]

I understand what you're saying and truly appreciate your input & advice, however, according to a number of posts/articles I've read, this is not necessarily true:

Reptilian Brumation



I also stumbled across another post that was very similar to mine, where after taking his leo to the vet and having the gecko given a clean bill of health it was determined by the vet that the gecko was brumating.

In my case, I've taken her to the vet and was told that she had a respiratory infection, but otherwise looked healthy (no impaction, nothing in the GI tract, no eggs, good weight, clear eyes). Her meds were administered as prescribed (orally, twice daily, 2 drops per dose, for 7 days).

Granted, a fecal culture was not done, but I did show a picture of it to the vet and he did not seem too concerned. I will be scheduling a follow-up exam in the next week or so and will hopefully be able to get a fecal sample.

Let's see if I have the energy to repeat myself, no offense to you. You can not believe everything you read on the internet and not all information pertains to all reptiles. It's okay if you choose not to believe me, I understand, but I will explain briefly anyway.

I have tested many scenerios with leopard geckos and in about 25 years, never have I experienced a leo go off food just because. There was always a reason behind, not necessarily illness. There are so many reasons and people simply never realize the mistakes. I can only tell you but so much based on the information you provide, however if I was able to observe your gecko myself, the results may be different.

I have visited many peoples gecko's who have complained of the same, gecko stop eating. Every single time I have found the reason why, unless it was due to illness of course. Too hot, too exposed, too stressed, dehydrated, lack of photoperiod, lack of space, wrong size prey, humidity too low, cheap thermometers(poor reading), malfunctioning heating equipment or simply the owner was measuring in the wrong places. These are only a few I can think of off the top of my head. No, I'm not a wizard :biggrin:nor have anything to gain by telling you this. I'm just sharing my experience.

I will be scheduling a follow-up exam in the next week or so and will hopefully be able to get a fecal sample.

Better to be safe than sorry.

 

[cricket4u]

also stumbled across another post that was very similar to mine, where after taking his leo to the vet and having the gecko given a clean bill of health it was determined by the vet that the gecko was brumating.

What does a clean bill of health consist of? When you go to your doctor, does he simply examine you physically? No, after a certain age the doctor must run blood analysis. There's no way of knowing what is going on internally for sure without it. He said, forget it, I wasn't there. Don't believe what everyone tells you.

In my case, I've taken her to the vet and was told that she had a respiratory infection, but otherwise looked healthy (no impaction, nothing in the GI tract, no eggs, good weight, clear eyes). Her meds were administered as prescribed (orally, twice daily, 2 drops per dose, for 7 days).

I normally blind myself when people type prescription doses on forums. There's simply several ways to prescribe a drug per condition as mentioned above. When I read unusual dosing frequencies it always makes me wonder. Please do not take this personal, but there are many who find the drugs on the internet and try to treat their geckos themselves and will start a thread, just so that someone can confirm if it's correct. Sadly, many times they miscalculate the dosage or use the wrong drug leading to terrible consequences.

Granted, a fecal culture was not done, but I did show a picture of it to the vet and he did not seem too concerned. I will be scheduling a follow-up exam in the next week or so and will hopefully be able to get a fecal sample.

Very good. I hope for the best.

 

[cricket4u]

I just wanted to make sure. This is the only thing you have been feeding the insects? You also have never provided multivitamins correct?

Crickets are gut loaded with Flukers Cricket Quencher (yellow; calcium fortified) and/or Zilla Cricket Drink (green; calcium fortified)

Fluker's Cricket Quencher at PETCO

Zilla Gut Load Cricket Drink with Calcium at PETCO

You have pretty much only been providing water, calcium and fat. Their bodies need over 30 nutrients. She has good body weight mainly due to that fat, but I can almost guarantee that she is vitamin deficient in general. Respiratory and stomatitis infections are common especially in Vitamin A deficiency. The common insects are a very poor source of vitamin A, with the exception of silkworms. As I mentioned from the beginning she appears dull. She will not loose weight easy from vitamin deficiency, however will lose her appetite. If she continues to refuse food, I suggest that you ask the vet for a balanced nutritional support food.

Did you put the CHE on a thermostat?

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Hello ~

Here are my Cricket Guidelines. I use those exactly. Don't add the collard greens or carrots too often, though.

The Albers All Purpose Poultry Feed does contain vitamin A acetate so important for healthy eyes and skin .

Any chance of picking up some Zoo Med's Reptivite with vitamin D3/vitamin A acetate?

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Cricket Guidelines

http://www.geckosunlimited.com/comm...-feeding-issues/68574-cricket-guidelines.html


Hassle-free Cricket Care
ElizabethFreer@aol.com
Geckos Unlimited/Pacific Northwest Herpetological Society
13 May 2013 (amended)
(www.GeckosUnlimited.com)

Take a suitably sized container, for instance, an extra large Kritter Keeper or a 56 quart Sterilite bin. Place a good quality all purpose poultry feed (Albers All Purpose Poultry Feed), dry oatmeal, and alfalfa hay on the bottom of the cage. Add your crickets. Next cover with a double layer of egg cartons. On top of the egg cartons place a paper towel. Spray the paper towel generously every other day. Keep crickets between 70 F and the mid 80s. They will grow faster if warmer, but seem to do fine at 70 F. If room temperatures exceed 85 F spray the paper towel daily.

Spraying the paper towel is a good way to provide moisture for your crickets and save them from perishing from too much moisture.

Feed crickets an All Purpose Poultry Feed (Albers' contains about 16% protein, 3% fat, & vitamin A acetate), dry oatmeal, alfalfa hay (“Hay-Kob”: 800-332-5623), collard greens, and carrots. General Mills' dry cereal whole grain TOTAL can be used in a pinch.

If your source is pesticide-free with good soil, dandelion flowers and greens can also be fed to the crickets. To make the alfalfa hay easy to chew for young crickets, soak the alfalfa hay in water prior to adding .

Do not feed insects puppy, kitten, dog, and/or cat biscuits/food OR tropical fish flakes. Those are way too high in protein and fat and potentially could cause hepatic lipidosis (fatty liver disease).

Do not feed freeze-dried or canned crickets to your geckos. Any gecko gets moisture from well-hydrated prey as well as the nutrients such prey provides.

By following these recommendations it is quite easy to keep your crickets alive and thriving easily one to two months past purchase.


dbott67 ~ You may wish to add the following:

Formally "gutload" crickets 48 hours prior to feeding off to geckos with T-REX Calcium Plus Food for Crickets.

Gutloading the Feeders versus Feeding the Feeders 24/7
The term gutloading causes some confusion. Feed your feeders a nutritious regular diet all the time to build strong feeder bodies. Then only feed a special GUTLOAD product to the crickets, for example, 1-2 days prior to feeding the crickets to your geckos. T-REX Calcium Plus Cricket Food is a good gutload food. Top off the crickets by lightly dusting with a multivitamin containing D3/vitamin A acetate and phosphorus-free calcium with D3 no more than 2x weekly.


2 March 2013:
Captured directly from Hilde's post #134, 27 Feb 2013, on "spoiled by crickets" thread in the crestie forum:
"If you feed the insects a decent diet full time, not just a day before feeding them off, you really improve the nutrients they'll provide - build a better body, not just fill the relatively short intestinal tract."