Should I put my Leopard Gecko on a diet?

[Gossamer]

Hey, everyone. Thankfully, there's no urgent situation this time. I just want some opinions about Lore's (my female) feeding schedule and if I should cut back. But first, some info!

Basic Information

Species of lizard: leopard gecko
Gecko's name: Lore
Morph: Hypo Tangerine Carrot Tail
Gender: Female
Age: unknown
Weight: 50 grams (as of 12-16-2015)
Enclosure: 20 gallon tank
Substrate provided: Repticarpet
Thermometer: Craftsman 500 digital thermometer
ground temperature in warm dry hide: 93-95 F
air temperature on warm end ~4 inches above the ground: 85 F
air temperature on cool end ~4 inches above the ground: 75 F
UTH: Flukers 11x11 under tank heater on a vivosun thermostat

Food

Insects and worms, list type: mealworms and phoenix worms
Regular gutload diet fed to the worms: Zoo Med Adult Natural Bearded Dragon Food and Flukers Calcium fortified Cricket Quencher, Phoenix Worms not fed anything as per care instructions
How often do you feed your gecko? Every day
Supplements: Zoo med reptical with D3 (given once a week on a biweekly basis), Herp-cal Calcium without D3 or phosphorous (in a lightly dusted dish, available in tank at all times), Zoo med reptivitamin (given once a week on a biweekly basis)
If your gecko is sick, please describe the signs and how long your gecko has been showing these signs: I don’t think she’s sick, but I think she might be getting a touch overweight

Additional Information

General

Gecko's total length: 7.5 inches
Length of your reptile when you first acquired it: 6.5 inches
Source (pet store, breeder, previous owner): Petsmart
Captive bred or wild caught: captive bred

Heating

Ventilation space for your UTH by elevating the tank above the shelf (some UTHs come with sticky feet for the tank corners): yes
Are you using a thermostat(s)? Yes, vivosun thermostat
Which hide does she/he spend most of her time? Equally spread between warm and cold; only uses moist hide for sheds
Is the temperature decreased at night? I don’t decrease the UTH’s heat, but the ambient air temp does decrease by about 2-3 degrees at night

Humidity

Is the humidity measured? Yes
Humidity range: I live in Florida, so it’s always 70% or higher outside and 40%-60% in the tank (rain depending)

Diet

Please list any recent additions/changes in the diet: Phoenix Worms about a month ago

General Health

Is your gecko’s general activity level normal, decreased, or increased? Normal
Is your gecko’s appetite normal, decreased, or increased? Decreased
Have you noticed any of the following?
Weight (loss or gain): Steady gain of about 3-4 grams a week
Discharge from the eyes or nose: no
Increased breathing rate or effort: no
Change in the droppings: no
Urates
---white or yellowish: white
---size of urates as compared to size of feces: quarter to half
Abnormal skin color or shedding: Normal Skin and no issues shedding
Parasites on the skin or in the feces: none
Weakness: none
Regurgitation: none
Previous problems and/or illnesses: None

Other Critters in Same Cage or in Household

List other animals that are kept in the same cage: none
Recent acquisitions (new pets within the past 6 months): none
Are any of your other pets ill? No



Ok, so I've noticed her tail getting to be quite chunky as of late (earning her the affectionate nickname "fluff-butt" from my mom), and I'm wondering if maybe she's at the point where I should start feeding every other day. She normally gets 20 gutloaded mealworms some days of the week, and other days she gets 10 gutloaded mealworms and 10 Phoenix worms. (I'm still getting parental consent for a discoid roach colony, root for me on that front!). I dust one time a week with the Zoo Med Reptical with D3, and then the next week I dust one time a week with the Zoo Med Reptivite (thanks again, [MENTION=56287]JessJohnson87[/MENTION]).

Here's a few pics of her, so you all can judge. Like I said previously, she's ~7.5 inches long and at ~50 grams. The first one is her in "flat mode" as I call it (when she's absorbing heat), the second and third ones are close-ups of her legs, the fourth one is her mid-turnaround, and the last one is her judging me for taking pics of her with the flash on (hence that evil glare). Please let me know what you all think!

 

[JessJohnson87]

She does look a little fluffy around the mid section. I still say to cut back the amount of food and try out every other day and get her out for some exercise a couple of times a week. Unless she's gravid, still not sure at what age/weight they start becoming gravid.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Food

Insects and worms, list type: mealworms and phoenix worms
Regular gutload diet fed to the worms: Zoo Med Adult Natural Bearded Dragon Food and Flukers Calcium fortified Cricket Quencher, Phoenix Worms not fed anything as per care instructions
How often do you feed your gecko? Every day
Supplements: Zoo med reptical with D3 (given once a week on a biweekly basis), Herp-cal Calcium without D3 or phosphorous (in a lightly dusted dish, available in tank at all times), Zoo med reptivitamin (given once a week on a biweekly basis)
If your gecko is sick, please describe the signs and how long your gecko has been showing these signs: I don’t think she’s sick, but I think she might be getting a touch overweight

I also feel that Lore is ready to eat 3x per week. She will continue to grow and lengthen until she is about 18 months old. Let her "stretch out" some. ;-)

I would lightly dust half her mealworms with ZM D3 Repti Calcium 1x every week. On alternate weeks I'd also dust half her mealworms with ZM plain (no D3) Reptivite 1x only.

I'd add either crickets or dubia to her diet. When you do, dust those instead of the mealies. They hold the dust better.

Is she licking any of the plain calcium from her dish? Too much calcium is undesirable.

 

[JessJohnson87]

She lives in Florida so that's why she's shooting for a Discoid roach colony.

 

[Gossamer]

[MENTION=3989]Elizabeth Freer[/MENTION]

She does lap up some calcium on occasion, but it's not a frequent occurrence (from what I can tell, at least). I'll try to get crickets or discoids into her diet, but parental restrictions do apply. I might be able to convince dad to let me keep discoids or crickets in the garage, but even that might take some serious sucking up. (I might have to get sneaky and start hiding them in my room, if push comes to shove).

If I can't get a colony going, would just once a week for the crickets/roaches be ok? I could be able to swing that. And if so, about how many crickets/roaches should be fed? Should they be fed in conjunction with the mealies?

Also, I've noticed her acting a little odd (eating less or not eating some days, sleeping on the warm side outside of her hide on occasion, little things like that), but we just had a massive cold front blow through this week, in addition to 3 solid days of rain. So, I've been chalking it up to that plus the fact that she needs to go on a diet. XD

Now, just to summarize what you all are saying...

Feed 3 times a week (expect some weight loss, but not a lot)
LIGHTLY dust HALF her 20 mealworms once a week with ZM D3 Calcium
LIGHTLY dust HALF her 20 mealworms once every OTHER week with ZM Reptivite as well

Now, if all this is right, would I be able to apply the dusting schedule to my dork Lavi? He is still growing (6.5 inches, 31 grams as of 12-12-2015), so I want to make DOUBLY sure he gets proper supplementation.

And her legs (gait? posture?) looked alright (for a fluffly leo)? No weird bends or anything I might have missed?


[MENTION=56287]JessJohnson87[/MENTION]

Thanks for clearing that up before I could get on and explain myself. These wacky Florida laws I have to work around!

 

[JessJohnson87]

I feed 3 Dubia roaches per feeding and about 6-8 crickets. It all depends on his appetite. Once a week should be find if you can't get a colony going, I've been debating on letting my dubia breed.

You're welcome, I'm surprised I remembered that lol.

 

[Gossamer]

PFF, ok. I know geckos will lap water from the walls of their humid hide, but this was just too funny for me NOT to post. Lore was on her new favorite heat spot (literally right next to the warm hide, no temp difference at all), and I came in and did the usual maintenance stuff. Rinsed her water dish and gave her fresh water, took the 2 out of ten mealworms she didn't eat out of her dish (both my geckos appetites have dropped to about 10ish mealworms this past week... again, I blame the stinking cold fronts), checked for poop (none, but I'm not expecting her to poop everyday): the usual stuff.

Well, when it came time for me to mist her humid hide, I noticed her perk up and walk over to me, watching expectantly. I started spraying, and the next thing I know, she's lapping water off the sides of the hide! Granted, when I sprayed a little too hard (the bottle let out quite a hiss), she jumped, wiggled her tail at me, and scurried back over to her cold hide. I checked to see if she was able to get into her water dish, and she is, so I know she's got water available.

Welp, at least I know she's drinking! XD

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Thanks for being flexible. There are too many details to cover via PM. I hope you understand.

[MENTION=3989]Elizabeth Freer[/MENTION]

She does lap up some calcium on occasion, but it's not a frequent occurrence (from what I can tell, at least). I'll try to get crickets or discoids into her diet, but parental restrictions do apply. I might be able to convince dad to let me keep discoids or crickets in the garage, but even that might take some serious sucking up. (I might have to get sneaky and start hiding them in my room, if push comes to shove).

If I can't get a colony going, would just once a week for the crickets/roaches be ok? I could be able to swing that. And if so, about how many crickets/roaches should be fed? Should they be fed in conjunction with the mealies?

Definitely, once-a-week crickets/discoids will be much better than none. Perhaps you could get some silkworms occasionally for variety? Can you guys get hornworms?

Also, I've noticed her acting a little odd (eating less or not eating some days, sleeping on the warm side outside of her hide on occasion, little things like that), but we just had a massive cold front blow through this week, in addition to 3 solid days of rain. So, I've been chalking it up to that plus the fact that she needs to go on a diet. XD

Now, just to summarize what you all are saying...

Feed 3 times a week (expect some weight loss, but not a lot)

There should be no weight loss. She should keep growing. If you notice weight loss, then increase the number of worms/insects per feeding.

LIGHTLY dust HALF her 20 mealworms once a week with ZM D3 Calcium
LIGHTLY dust HALF her 20 mealworms once every OTHER week with ZM Reptivite as well

/\ That's correct.

Now, if all this is right, would I be able to apply the dusting schedule to my dork Lavi? He is still growing (6.5 inches, 31 grams as of 12-12-2015), so I want to make DOUBLY sure he gets proper supplementation.

That same exact dusting schedule will work for Lavi too. It is based upon you feeding the mealworms the ZM Adult beardie food.

And her legs (gait? posture?) looked alright (for a fluffly leo)? No weird bends or anything I might have missed?

(Comments above)

She looks fine to me. If you wish, you could share a video.

 

[Gossamer]

Oh no, thank you dear. You and Jess have been wonderful help. I'm glad to know that the once a week schedule will be alright for the crickets; I got shot down HARD for having either colony. I'll continue to monitor her weight and will increase food as necessary. But I've been lucky to get ten in her (and Lavi, for that matter) these past few days with the cold.

Hornworms and silkworms are hard to come by in my part of the state. At least I can get them the roaches! And thanks for double and triple checking everything again. I greatly appreciate it.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

BTW, have you plain (no D3) Reptivite?

You're welcome, Gossamer. If we don't ask, nothing is gained.

Keep us updated.

 

[Gossamer]

Of course, dear!

Yep on the ZM plain calcium! I got some yesterday when I went and got crickets for Lore (roaches for Lavi, since we know his feelings on crickets). I'll be feeding those off later today, now that they've had a chance to gutload (using same formula with the flukers cricket quenchers and ZM beardie food).

I've decided to remove the plain calcium from their tanks, because it's been two days since Lore has pooped and I noticed her calcium dish had a LOT lapped out of it. I did some reading and saw that too much calcium can cause digestion issues, so I took it out. I know the mealworms are eating (the quencher cubes are disappearing and the food is chewed up so...), so I'm not sure why she would have taken in so much!

...Unless she's gravid or something. In which case I need to get a good look at her belly next time she's out of her hide.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

BTW, have you plain (no D3) Reptivite multivitamins?

You're welcome, Gossamer. If we don't ask, nothing is gained.

Keep us updated.

Of course, dear!

Yep on the ZM plain calcium! I got some yesterday when I went and got crickets for Lore (roaches for Lavi, since we know his feelings on crickets). I'll be feeding those off later today, now that they've had a chance to gutload (using same formula with the flukers cricket quenchers and ZM beardie food).

I've decided to remove the plain calcium from their tanks, because it's been two days since Lore has pooped and I noticed her calcium dish had a LOT lapped out of it. I did some reading and saw that too much calcium can cause digestion issues, so I took it out. I know the mealworms are eating (the quencher cubes are disappearing and the food is chewed up so...), so I'm not sure why she would have taken in so much!

...Unless she's gravid or something. In which case I need to get a good look at her belly next time she's out of her hide.

Did you mean plain (no D3) Reptivite multivitamins? It's important to use a D3 calcium (not in the viv), but plain Reptivite.

Good on removing the plain calcium.

Here's a quote from Hilde from post 22:

"CALCIUM - excess:
Excess calcium in the digestive tract can hinder absorption of Vitamin A and D (we won't worry about E & K here). MBD is often considered to be caused by a shortage of calcium, but can happen even though there is ample calcium available. If there's not enough Vit D available, either stored in the liver or absorbed via food/supplements, then there won't be enough calcium absorbed. If you suspect a calcium shortage, it's easy to increase the amount available by dusting more often, even to the point of 'icing' the bugs with calcium, all of which just puts more calcium into the intestines but allowing less and less Vitamin A & D to be absorbed.... a vicious circle. The result is a gecko with possible MBD (even if it's on calcium substrate and gets calcium supplement), and a severe shortage of Vitamin A & D."

 

[Gossamer]

That's actually the EXACT information I read that made me take the calcium out. Thank you for directing my attention to it, though!

And yes, that's what I meant. I was originally using the Herp-cal plain calcium, but figured I might as well switch over entirely to the ZM brand of supplements. I had the plain ZM Reptivite and the ZM D3 Calcium already. I replied after just waking up, so I was probably a little confuzzled.

I want to have plain calcium on hand, just in case I ever might need it. As my dad says: "It's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it!"

 

[Gossamer]

Ok, guys! Good/Bad (?) news time!

Good news: Lore has pooped (looked normal and no weird odor, so yay on that front!) and snapped up 3 of the 5 crickets I offered her and 7 of the ten mealworms I offered her. I put the crickets and mealworms in separate dishes, mainly because I've heard that crickets will eat mealworms.(?!?!!?) Lavi was kinda meh on the roaches (I offered him 5 nymphs and he only at two) but he ate all ten of the mealworms offered.

Bad news: Lore has become skittish towards me. I'm certain this is because I've been checking in on her daily and had her out yesterday to gently rub her belly. I did that just in case she might have been impacted somehow, and I'm pretty sure she didn't appreciate it too much (although it seemed to help her pass whatever might have caused the potential blockage). I'm going to leave her alone this week and let her have some "her time" while things normalize again.

Thanks again for everything, guys! I'll be sure to keep everyone updated about her (especially if something goes screwy).

 

[Gossamer]

Hi, all. I'm just updating everyone on Lore's current status. She is still gaining weight (is now at 52 grams) and still seems healthy. She did shed today, and I had to help her get some stuck shed around her back toes (I blame that pudge gut of her's). She responded to the soak and subsequent removal well, and I'm not seeing any issues thus far with her new feeding schedule. I'll continue to provide weekly updates for a little while until I feel that she's pretty much good.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Hi, all. I'm just updating everyone on Lore's current status. She is still gaining weight (is now at 52 grams) and still seems healthy. She did shed today, and I had to help her get some stuck shed around her back toes (I blame that pudge gut of her's). She responded to the soak and subsequent removal well, and I'm not seeing any issues thus far with her new feeding schedule. I'll continue to provide weekly updates for a little while until I feel that she's pretty much good.

Thank you for Lore's update!

 

[Gossamer]

Not a problem, dear. It's the least I can do! After all, a complete health record is one of the most valuable resources a pet owner can have; especially for exotics. It not only helps the owner keep track of previous issues, but also can help determine how to potentially help fix it in the future.

It's also a good resource for your gecko's vet, as keeping a thread of your gecko's health can often provide a valuable timeline. I learned that with Lavi (though nothing really went "wrong" per say, it was more him being finicky), as my vet greatly appreciated me having accurate dates for everything.

I honestly am so glad I joined this site. It's helped me so much!

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

/\ :biggrin:

 

[Gossamer]

Hello, all. I think I spoke too soon. I noticed something odd today about Lore’s urate. The fecal part was fine: dark brown, well formed, no odor. Her urate was the normal size (about a third the size of the feces) and was white, but I noticed small yellow crystals in it as well. It almost looked like yellow glitter, if that makes sense. I also noticed it with Lavi as well, but he’s in shed, so I’d expect an odd fecal/urate sample from him right now.

After doing some reading, I’ve come to five possible causes.

A) Too many supplements: This would make more sense if I was still on my old schedule. But having switched to once a week supplements and only lightly dusting half her feeders shouldn’t be overdoing it!

B) Feeders: The thread “Crystals in Urate” in this forum offered an interesting tidbit about how feeders that still have gutload in their systems could cause this sort of thing. I do feed my feeders directly from their gutload bin, so that could possibly be it.

C) Dehydration: The only reason I think this might even be a possible cause is that I’ve cut back their feeding schedule to every other day. Since they aren’t getting constant moisture from their feeders anymore, they may not be getting enough moisture daily... even though I feed them both all they can eat in 15 minutes. But I keep their moist hides moist always, and they always have fresh water from a water dish cleaned daily with hot water, so I would be surprised if this was the case.

D) Adjustment Period: It’s only been a week really since I switched their schedule around to every other day, so they could still be adjusting to the new schedule.

E) Water: I've been giving them water from our tap (we have well water, not the chlorinated city stuff), but after testing our water with one of my dad's water testing kits, I found that our water would be considered "hard". I tested water from our fridge (it's filtered) and that came out good, so I'm going to switch them to water from there and see if that helps.

I can’t say for sure which of these it could be, but I’m going to continue to monitor the situation and see if it gets better or worse. Any input would be great!

 

[Gossamer]

Ok all, it looks like the water is where the problem came from. I switched them to the filtered water and the yellow-y urate problem cleared right up! Lore is holding steady at 52 grams, so I'm going to try offering food for a little bit longer each feeding. Lavi is still gaining about 2 grams a week with the new schedule, and is currently at 37 grams.

At any rate, I hope everyone has a happy New Year, and best of luck!