Noob Inherited A Leo

emiliew

New member
Hey all. Long post will be long.

Long story short, I inherited an adult girl Leo from a hoarder. They weren't an animal hoarder, but a hoarder nonetheless. I point this out, because I know she has not gotten proper care for YEARS and there are some issues. Herp expertise includes anoles, cornsnakes, and a ball python, so when I saw the little lizzy being neglected (literally her terrarium was covered in junk and when I asked the last time she was fed the answer was "IDK some time last week" with a dry water dish) my heart went out and I had to save her.

I know she's an adult, older (guy said around 10 years, IDK if that's accurate). She is on sand with one hidey and a water dish, a temp and a barometer sticking on ONE side, and a purplish/bluish lamp.

Physically, she seems bright, underfed but not horribly skinny, but the real reason I am posting: her front legs are bent inward and are purplish. My first thought was a shedding problem (I had a sneek that had a notorious tail tip issue) but as I was reading more in the forums it sounds exactly like MBD. When I asked the brother of the hoarder (the brother is a friend of mine) he said her legs have been like that since he's known her (4 years). When I first took her, she seemed to just drag herself around in the front and barely lifted herself up, but as I've been feeding her the last two weeks on a regular basis it seems that she can lift herself more now into more of an army crawl on her elbows?

So, here come the questions:

1. Should I switch from sand? I know that there are a lot of sand impact fears, but I'm wondering in her condition, being older, when it's what she's used to, if I should keep her on it? Maybe it's easier on her front legs since she's kind of walking on her elbows? Thoughts? I bought a new bag of calci-sand (again, noob) but I haven't opened it yet to change out her substrate, so I can take it back if something would be better. I've seen no sand in her poo.

2. I don't know what the bulb is in the lamp. It sits on top of her cage and emits a soft blue/purple light and emits heat. Is that the correct kind, or should I get a different kind? (I'm used to white and red so the blue has me scratching my head.)

3. MBD. I've been reading up on it in here, and see calcium is a thing she will need so I need to go grab some dusting materials for her crickets. I saw mention of a calcium dish: should this just be dust, or should I add it to her water or what?

4. Is there any hope, when she's suffered from MBD for so long, that she will recover, or is it just a permanent thing now that I have to monitor to make sure it doesn't get worse? Is there a chance she regain the use of her feet, or walk all stubbly like she is now? (Poor thing, I wouldn't love her less, but I'm trying to see what to expect.) Is there anything else I should be doing to help her with MBD?

5. Feeding her crickets for the first time was heartbreaking. She was so lethargic and could barely move, but she got them, and is getting stronger. She seems to have no interest in freeze dried mealworms, and I'm going to try large live ones tomorrow, but is it a big deal if she's just like all crickets all the time? Should I keep trying, or just let her have her way? Speaking of food, how much should I feed her? She's about 8in long tip to tail.

6. I've gotten stuff to make her a moist hide. This should be in the warm part of the tank, correct? (Thankfully she's got a whole 30G all to herself, so I can have some room to play with the temps.) Should this be in all the time or just when she's ready to shed?

7. She shed the first week I got her (week and a half ago, because I think she was finally getting food on a semi-regular basis). How often will she end up shedding as an adult, just so I can keep an eye on her health?

8. Is the barometer necessary? Should I be monitoring something with it or just nix it?

I was sure there were more questions, but my brain turned into a pumpkin (it's midnight here). I'll probably think of them again, but I think this probably is the most of my "help I have a troubled lady" ponderings.

Thanks everyone in advance for the help!
 
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CWilson13

New member
Welcome to GU and thank you for saving this poor girl from such deplorable conditions!!

I will do my best to answer all of your questions, though I hope others come along and offer some insight as well.

1- I definitely advise switching from sand, especially since she has issues standing uo all the way. Each bite she makes at a cricket could include sand and that will only add problems. Since her front legs sound like they are in rough shape, I think paper towels or even repti-carpet would be the softest substrate for her. If you decide to get the repti-carpet, be sure to grab at least 2 though. This way you can switch them out when cleaning her tank.
2- I may have missed it, but is this bulb her only heat source? She needs an under tank heater more than she needs any overhead heat/light. Leos use the heat on their bellies to help them digest food, so a UTH is critical. Along with the UTH she also needs a thermostat to help keep the temperatures in the correct range. We don't want her getting burned or freezing after all. As for the bulb, I am familiar with the blue bulb, they do provide a little heat and light but as long as she is getting natural light the bulb isn't necessary. If she does need a bit of extra heat I suggest a ceramic heat emitter instead. They give off more heat and do not subject the crepuscular (active at dawn and dusk) Leo to excessive light.
3- As for the calcium, some people do offer a small dish of calcium powder to their Leos. Others swear it isn't needed. I think if you are offering a good schedule of feedings with properly dusted food, the extra dish won't be needed. The calcium should never be mixed with the water though, that just makes the water messy.
4- The MBD issue is something I fortunately do not have any firsthand experience with, my only recommendation is to take her to an exotic vet asap. This should be done regardless of MBD though since she was neglected for so long. If at all possible, try to bring the vet fecal samples as well so they can test for parasites and other issues.
5- It is a great sign that she has gotten better after regular feedings. Instead of jumping right to the large mealworms, maybe trying a few smaller ones first would give her a better chance with them? I typically only feed my Leos Dubia roaches, but have fed Superworms in the past and if they are like mealworms, the big ones can be a bit more active and squirmy. Many people do have crickets as their staple feeder insect, so it wouldn't be awful if that is what you decide to go with. If at all possible, I definitely recommend Dubia Roaches instead though. They are healthier for the Leo, less noisy, and by far, less smelly than crickets. There are many online retailers that sell Dubia (I use dubiaroaches.com) No matter what the staple is, mixing it up occasionally is a great idea. I tend to spoil my 2 and will get them Hornworms and when possible, silkworms as well so they do not get bored with the same food all the time.
I am not surprised she didn't care for the freeze dried though. The entire process of freeze drying actually saps most of the nutrients out of insects. They become little more than chitin and thus are not worth buying.
As for how much to feed her, that is more tricky. Since she was underfed for so long I am sure she is very hungry. My male was underfed before I got him and he would gobble down everything in sight the first few weeks. With her mobility issues I would say offer her as many as she can eat in a 20min span. No more than say 10-12 however, if she eats too many she could end up regurgitating and that is never good.
6- You are absolutely correct, the moist hide should be kept on the warm side of the tank along with her warm dry hide. My 2 seem to love the feel of the Sphagnum moss in their humid hides so I just leave them in. You do still want to keep it moist though so you might need to take it out during cleanings and re-wet the substrate in it.
7- The shedding is a bit tricky for me to answer. There doesn't seem to be a set time frame for when my 2 shed... Both are very secretive about their shedding though, so all I can do is guess that they both shed every 2-3 weeks. In order to keep track of their sheds and to be sure that they don't have any stuck shed, I just check them over each time they come out for enrichment.
8- I see no reason to keep the barometer. Just the UTH connected to the thermostat, two digital thermometers (one cool side, one warm) and you should be fine.

Hopefully I was at least a little helpful, there are others here who can offer MUCH more and better advice though. I am sure they will post soon. I will check back often in case you remember other questions :)
 

Elizabeth Freer

Well-known member
Hi Emilie ~

Welcome aboard! Have you seen Cory's thorough reply? I agree with everything he has mentioned.

You mention your leo's front legs are bent inward, that she uses her elbows to walk, and that this has been going on at least 4 years. "Early" MBD can be controlled. That's about it.

Can you post a video of her walking? That will help us.

I recommend getting her on a set schedule of calcium with D3 and multivitamins without D3. In order for the calcium to be metabolized, vitamin D3 needs to be available. I use and recommend
  • Zoo Med's Repti Calcium with D3
  • Zoo Med's ReptiVite multivitamins without D3
1. Use paper towels for a substrate (certainly not calci-sand).

2. Get an under tank heat mat for your 30 gallon tank. The mat should be half the length and the same width as the enclosure.

5. Well-fed crickets make a good diet. Add some feeder like hornworms once in awhile. Amputate the crickets' legs right below their knees to slow them down. A shallow feeding dish may be helpful for her.

6. The moist hide and 1 of two dry hides are placed over the heat mat on the warm end. Keep the moist hide damp as close to 24/7 as you can. (Do you know what your room humidity is?)

8. A barometer/hygrometer is not necessary. Just get one or two digital thermometers with probes. The probe measures the ground temperature. The cool end is often whatever temperature the room is.

Hydrofarm's Jump Start thermostat is the thermostat I use. Amazon carries it.
 
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blondebrowncoat

New member
CWilson13 and Elizabeth are on point. Ditch the sand, gut-load, amputate cricket legs, heating pad, moist hide, thermostat. Amazon has a sale on thermostats right now. I just bought this one: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01DZ5NVBQ/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

For substrate there are several options outside of paper towels, although those are the cheapest and easiest. I have floor tiles in mine that I picked up from home depot and had cut for free to fit the terrarium. You can do this for pretty cheap and you can sanitize the heck out of them at each cleaning. Plus it looks pretty fancy and it's a one time investment. Make sure they're textured so she can easily grip to move. You HAVE to have a thermostat with these because you want to make sure the tile doesn't overheat and burn your Leo. You can under-fill with sand to eliminate hot spots, just make sure she doesn't have access to the sandy parts. Test the tank temps out for a couple of days before putting her in there to make sure it's balanced correctly.

Another great alternative are cork sheets. Office supply stores sell thin rolls of it for cheap. It's bacteria etc resistant, easy to clean, easy to replace, and you can even get different colors if you want to pimp out your tank :). It also conducts heat well. I get mad at paper towels because it's easier for crickets to hide under them.

Geckos are great. Even if she has some health and locomotion issues she will really appreciate the care you give her. I've had mine for three years and he is more friendly than most dogs. They're a really rewarding pet and the time and effort is completely worth it.
 
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emiliew

New member
So I just switched everything out. I have an undertank heater, I got some repticarpet (a couple so I can wash one while she's on the other) and I've begun to coat the crickets in calcium. I got her to eat worms (basically she has no interest unless things are moving which is fine, the big grubs do once they warm up). So now she has a bit more varied diet.

I'm thinking the tank is a bit too warm though. The cool side is the house temp which is about 73-75 (as it shows on the therm in that side of the tank), but the therm on the warm side doesn't really rise about 75-80, so I put her light back on top to try and amp the warmth up, saw the meter go to 85-90, but then she would plaster herself as FAR away from it as possible as quickly as possible, which makes me think it's too warm? I just got the stick ons and they're about 5 inches from the bottom of the tank so I think it's not reading properly? I'll look into those probe things. For now the therm on the warm side reads 80, and I'm keeping the lamp off because that behaviour is what my anoles would do when it was way too hot and I don't want to overheat her.

It seems that she has a MUCH easier time walking on the repticarpet than the sand, and she hasn't had much interest in the warm hide yet. I go in and spray the moss once a day to keep it moist, and then I've been changing it out weekly. I don't really know how clean moss will keep.

Overall she's got a healthy appetite, and seems to be more active (probably because she's getting fed regularly now). She does have a bit of shed left on her nose though, that won't come off, and doesn't seem particularly happy when I try and set her in water to try and help with that :/

I'll try and get a video of her walking :)

I took a look at that link to the temp controller. So does that turn the undertank pad OFF if it gets too warm? Am I reading that properly? And then turns it back on when it gets to a certain low temperature? Because if so that's genius and would resolve my worries about her getting too warm/cold.
 
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Elizabeth Freer

Well-known member
emiliew said:
Overall she's got a healthy appetite, and seems to be more active (probably because she's getting fed regularly now). She does have a bit of shed left on her nose though, that won't come off, and doesn't seem particularly happy when I try and set her in water to try and help with that :/

I'll try and get a video of her walking.

I took a look at that link to the temp controller. So does that turn the undertank pad OFF if it gets too warm? Am I reading that properly? And then turns it back on when it gets to a certain low temperature? Because if so that's genius and would resolve my worries about her getting too warm/cold.
I look forward to seeing a video of her walking. In the meantime please share a photo.

What are the dimensions of your undertank heat mat?

A temperature controller/thermostat automatically turns off and on just like you say. Check out Hydrofarm's Jump Start MTPRTC thermostat too from Amazon. That one controls just one device like the heat mat or an overhead lamp.

Stick-on strip or analog/circle thermometers aren't accurate enough. Zoo Med makes a yellow digital thermometer with a probe that costs about $10. The ground temps under the warm dry hide should range from 88-92*F and the cool end should be 75*F and cooler.

You mention you "coat" the crickets with calcium powder. It's best to just lightly dust them. With mealworms dusting is more difficult because the supplements don't stick very well.

What exact brand of supplements have you? How often are you dusting the crickets?

See whether either of the following methods will help remove the stuck shed on your leo's nose.

METHOD #1
  • Use warm water. The water temperature should be no greater than 86*F/30*C, a leopard gecko's preferred body temperature.
  • Take a plastic container (like a GladWare container) a little bigger than your gecko
  • Poke holes in the lid so that your gecko can breathe
  • Add a little water up to the belly of your leopard gecko. If your gecko is smaller, then use scrunched up paper towels that have been dampened or sprayed to maintain the necessary humidity. Include a rough rock or a small piece of cork back with the damp paper towels.
  • Spray the insides of this container
  • Add the gecko
  • Snap on the lid
  • Place this container inside your leo's enclosure and right next to the warm dry hide (right above the heat mat). OR Place this container near a lamp containing a low wattage bulb (15 watt or 25 watt incandescent bulb or similar wattage compact fluorescent). Water droplets should form on the insides of your plastic container!
  • Monitor the temperature frequently
    [*]Monitor your gecko at all times
  • Repeat this procedure, if necessary.
After 30 minutes, perhaps longer, remove the gecko and gently attempt to remove the stuck shed using a gentle rolling motion with a dry q-tip.


METHOD #3 - Especially for stuck shed on head
  • Wrap the gecko in a wet washcloth with just the snout and eyes visible.
  • Firmly hold gecko in place for 15-20 minutes.
  • Remove wrap.
  • Test the skin gently to see whether it has loosened up enough for removal.
  • If skin is still not loose enough, try wrapping again for another 15 minutes.
  • Also: try holding wet sterile gauze or a wet cotton ball on your gecko's head (or nose).
 
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