My leopard geckos legs shake slightly when he walks and supplement schedule change?

[ShadowJimmy107]

Hi, my name is Jimmy, I have owned a leopard gecko for around 6 months now I he has been doing this since I got him. I have read that this could be a sign if MBD and I am scared of ANY of my animals getting this so I stuck to his supplement schedule. I feed him 4-5 days (give or take) and did a pattern like Calcuim without d3 | Calcium without d3 | Multivitiman with d3 and the patteren would restart. The store told me he was around 2 years old, lasted weighed he was 75 grams. He is quite big for his age, he lives in a 15 gallon tank with a tile floor with a tempurature range that flucuates from around 89-94MAX, he has 3 hides, and 1 fake plant, when feeding he eats around 8 crickets a feeding (give or take), I try to keep my cat of the top of his tank but he jumps and lays on it sometimes (I hate it when he does that) He is relativly tame. The shaking has not gotten better from when I get him but dosnet seem worse. He is also male and an albino. I have a video below (yes I misspelled the title)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S00kAirpUuU

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

[MENTION=55860]Zux[/MENTION]

 

[Zux]

Hi guys,

I too have observed this in many Leopard Geckos in captivity.


It is my feeling that 'mild' symptoms such as these are almost always connected to either a slight under or over supply of one or more vitamins and/or minerals.

It has been my experience that symptoms like those 'slight shake/shudders' seem to be in some way tied to Calcium provision in the diet and the Geckos capability to absorb and effectively make use of that Calcium. I have absolutely zero scientific evidence to support this however and it is merely a theory of mine.

When caring for Leopard Geckos, and any Reptile for that matter, it is very difficult for us to provide exactly what they need in terms of vitamins/minerals through supplementation alone, that is usually because we actually have almost no idea what they need and are merely trying to cover the bases in a bid to stave off any potential critical deficiencies.



There are almost as many opinions on supplementation regimes as there are Leo owners, so I wont comment on those and instead explain what I do for mine.

All of my Geckos have UVB lighting and thereby self regulate their D3 cycles without any 'synthetic D3' supplementation from me. I dust at every second feeding with a balanced and full spectrum Calcium based multivitamin powder designed for daily or bi-daily re-balancing of insect prey. I also, periodically, provide a small dish of Calcium with Magnesium in the Geckos enclosures, especially for those females who may have been feeding poorly due to ovulation for example (it is worth noting that it these individuals in which I tend to notice the shaky leg in particular, further supporting the theory that it is through a dietary deficiency that this issue arises). The Geckos can almost always correct the symptoms themselves via self regulation of not only their Calcium/Mg levels but their D3 production also.

If you would like information regarding the products I use in particular, or anything else for that matter, just let me know.



I hope that might be of some small help to you.

Thank-you to Elizabeth (yet again) for pointing your thread out to me.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Note Zux's comment.
[MENTION=59127]JTB[/MENTION]

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Shane ~
Thanks ever so much!

These things would be helpful to know for leos, cresties, and other geckos (?) you keep under UVB. Using UVB for leos and for cresties is becoming more and more common. I would love to get a better handle on this.

How long have you had (all ?) your geckos solely dependent upon UVB?

Species:
Dimensions of enclosure:
Brand and type of bulb:
Strength of UVB:
How long UVB is left on during the days?:

 

[Zux]

Hi Elizabeth,

Yes it is wonderful to see more and more keepers beginning to take heed of advancements in knowledge and experience, and bring their care closer to meeting the most modern standards. The benefits seen in the animals is astounding.

I have had all the Geckos, and in fact, all species under UVB for approximately 1.5 years now.

Details Below -

Species: Leopard Geckos / African Fat Tailed Geckos
Dimensions of enclosures: 48Lx24Wx18H (inches)
Brand and type of bulbs: Arcadia 6% High Output T5 Bulbs
Strength of UVB: 6% UVB providing a UVI of 3-4 at the closest basking spot and slowly decreasing into total shade.
How long UVB is left on during the day?: The Bulbs are now on 12 hours a day, on average, every day, though I feel it is safer to build up to this point slowly, increasing exposure by a couple of minutes per day.


Species: Bearded Dragons
Dimensions of enclosure: 72Lx36Wx36H (inches)
Brand and type of bulb: Arcadia 14% High Output T5 'Dragon Lamps'
Strength of UVB: 14% UVB providing a UVI of 6 at the closest basking spot and slowly decreasing into total shade.
How long UVB is left on during the day?: The Bulbs are on 12 hours a day on average, every day.

I listed some of the most common species above which should be of interest to some, I also keep various Chameleon species and can offer some advice based on my experience with those also should anybody wish me to do so.


Hope that helped, any further questions, do let me know.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Hello Shane ~

Please share the brands of supplements you use as well as your calcium/magnesium supplement.

You mention the UVI index. Have you a UV meter? Which brand?

I've noticed some push for UVB for leos, even in tubs. Do you recommend a minimum enclosure size for leos and beardies when using UVB?

 

[Cymmie]

I don't leave my UVB on 12 hours a day even for my chameleons. I actually notice eye issues more often with 12 hour a day uvb no matter whether it is a linear tub or not. In fact what I do is I use sunlight, for all my reptiles as the constant sun source. Leos get 15 minutes a day, if they don't get out every day, they get out an over all at least 3 hours a week. Depending on which chameleon, one of my chameleons will get out for at least 2 hours a day (he gets no other UVB) and for my other chameleon she get 30 minutes every other day and gets 6-8 hours of artificial UVB. My blue tongue skink gets 5-8 hours of sun total through out the week with around 6 hours of artificial UVB. My tortoise spends good days outside the entire time, otherwise he gets artificial UVB.

I have seen far too many chameleons with eye problems that weren't able to be solved when taken to the vet or tried to be solved with vitamins. I am now dealing with my male panther chameleon having gone completely blind and he is now showing the best improvement with only his basking light on. If I turn his artificial UVB on even for a couple hours he slides back to much worse and I have to work for weeks to get him back where he needs to be. All my cages have full shade availability even in the basking zone. It's just not natural to have UVB that strong 12 hours a day.

 

[Zux]

There is no reason a well appointed UVB lighting system, installed in an appropriate manner, within the correct environment/enclosure, should result in 'eye issues' and certainly not blindness, no matter how long the photo-period is.

Poorly chosen bulbs, inappropriately installed and of incorrect strength/wavelength are the only things which can result in such retinal issues and will do so over time whether exposure periods be short or long.


What is of great danger however, is purchasing any UVB bulb of indeterminate strength and then installing those bulbs wherever they will 'fit' and presuming that will be OK. One must always be able to either read, or accurately predict the UVI the animal will be receiving from the bulb at its closest point for example and that light must reach the animal in a natural manner, being able to look directly at any bulb while in their natural basking position will almost certainly result in long term eye damage for example and such issues, as you have found, will not be treatable by conventional means.


UVB must always be provided to the appropriate level and within an appropriate enclosure, with areas of both partial and complete shade aswell as areas of upper index basking. Thereby allowing each animal to determine the level of exposure it needs, we as keepers, can never hope to do this as effectively as they can. This the main reason we are starting to see the move away from guessing at doses of synthetic supplements and toward safe UVB and mineral provision in our more forward thinking keepers.

On the topic of natural length UVB timing, on the contrary, having an appropriate length photo-period provided by a UVB lighting system is as close to 'natural' as we can hope to provide in captivity, but it must be done so in the correct manner.

We, as keepers, can do nothing but wildly guess as to what each animals UVB requirement at any given time, which is why it is imperative that we allow them to self regulate, taking them out in the sun for a random period of time each week, while undoubtedly beneficial, is far from measurable and certainly should not be relied upon as the animals sole chance of access to UVB.


- Elizabeth

Multivitamin - Arcadia Earth Pro A
Calcium - Arcadia Earth Pro Calcium-Mg

I do indeed use a UVB Meter - Solarmeter, the model I use is 6.2 (currently)

As for UVB provision re Leopard Geckos, it is my view that all but the truly nocturnal species (very few of which exists, let alone are kept in captivity) benefit greatly from appropriate provision of UVB. As highlighted above however, that must be done in the correct way.

Currently I am not aware of a solution which would be suitable for the common 'tub' system used by many.

As for minimum dimensions, one can source quality light units nowadays which
safely project low index UVB light at a strength of about 3-4% around 1 foot from the face of the bulb, so the absolute minimum I would suggest in terms of height would around 30cm approx.

 

[Cymmie]

I keep my chameleons as far as UVB as many keepers do and actually provide more shade in the upper parts of their enclosure than most keepers. The thing is there are tons of eye issues caused in the chameleons world, that most people never get to the bottom to and end up killing the chameleon because of the unknown. I have various things I am doing with Ryker. Most full-sun reptile species do not bask in the sun for more than 4 hours a day for anything as such as UVB. Leos would do less likely. And montane chameleons do less. The thing is, keepers have been keeping chameleons for ages and species that need UVB, long before it was determined that leos would do well with UVB. They used 30 minutes a day, sometimes only a couple hours a week. Their chameleons often lived a full life. I am not advocating the use of no artificial lights, I am just saying be careful.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

As for minimum dimensions, one can source quality light units nowadays which safely project low index UVB light at a strength of about 3-4% around 1 foot from the face of the bulb, so the absolute minimum I would suggest in terms of height would around 30cm approx.

Hi Shane ~

So 30 cms = an 11.8 inches high enclosure.

Which UVB light units do you recommend?

I notice that your leos and AFTs are housed in 48L x 24W x 18H inch long enclosures. What do you feel is a "safe" minimum enclosure length for providing a leopard gecko with UVB?

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

I don't leave my UVB on 12 hours a day even for my chameleons. I actually notice eye issues more often with 12 hour a day uvb no matter whether it is a linear tub or not. In fact what I do is I use sunlight, for all my reptiles as the constant sun source. Leos get 15 minutes a day, if they don't get out every day, they get out an over all at least 3 hours a week. Depending on which chameleon, one of my chameleons will get out for at least 2 hours a day (he gets no other UVB) and for my other chameleon she get 30 minutes every other day and gets 6-8 hours of artificial UVB. My blue tongue skink gets 5-8 hours of sun total through out the week with around 6 hours of artificial UVB. My tortoise spends good days outside the entire time, otherwise he gets artificial UVB.

I have seen far too many chameleons with eye problems that weren't able to be solved when taken to the vet or tried to be solved with vitamins. I am now dealing with my male panther chameleon having gone completely blind and he is now showing the best improvement with only his basking light on. If I turn his artificial UVB on even for a couple hours he slides back to much worse and I have to work for weeks to get him back where he needs to be. All my cages have full shade availability even in the basking zone. It's just not natural to have UVB that strong 12 hours a day.

Hi Cymmie ~

How is your male panther cham doing? What are the dimensions of his enclosure?

Are you continuing to use UVB for as many hours as you recommend in this post?

 

[Cymmie]

He is better for sure, I don't think he will ever be... completely able to see. But he can notice shapes and shadows etc. I am still hand feeding, he drinks on his own. He spends almost 4+ hours everyday outside, my new rescue boy (veiled chameleon with mild MBD) is only going out 2 hours a day but has liquid calcium in low amounts in his daily diet as well, just to make sure he is healing well. He now is eating on his own, and walking without any shaking in his limbs.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

He is better for sure, I don't think he will ever be... completely able to see. But he can notice shapes and shadows etc. I am still hand feeding, he drinks on his own. He spends almost 4+ hours everyday outside, my new rescue boy (veiled chameleon with mild MBD) is only going out 2 hours a day but has liquid calcium in low amounts in his daily diet as well, just to make sure he is healing well. He now is eating on his own, and walking without any shaking in his limbs.

:banana:

It sounds like you may live in a sunny place.

 

[Cymmie]

Thankfully I do, Central California, as long as the ambient temps are above 75 it's safe for day time weather, if sun is shining or not.

 

[Zux]

Which UVB light units do you recommend?

Currently, High Output T5 (tube style) bulbs are the best choice for UVB provision, effectively irrespective of enclosure size and style. I use Arcadia lighting exclusively, but as I understand it, Zoo-Med tech is not far behind at all in terms of quality.

In terms of the model to purchase (length / output), this will fundamentally depend on the height of the enclosure, aswell as the presence of screen lids which inevitably filter (reduce) the usable radiation.

I notice that your leos and AFTs are housed in 48L x 24W x 18H inch long enclosures. What do you feel is a "safe" minimum enclosure length for providing a leopard gecko with UVB?

Enclosure length is required only in the sense that we should be providing a gradient of UVB just as we do heat, as-long as an enclosure is long enough to achieve this, providing areas of partial to complete shade, this is sufficient. Though of course, the bigger the better for many other reasons.

Height wise, there are options out there now for almost any configuration, it is just up to the owner to do some checking to determine the model they will require, In my case, in those enclosures you mentioned, I provide a 6% H0-T5 to both Leos and AFT's. 6% is appropriate here because the screen lids of their enclosures filter out roughly 35-40% of the usable UVB which results in a UV Index of about 2 over the basking zone (warm side)

Hi Elizabeth, answers in blue above.

 

[Cymmie]

Oh and since we are going into winter weather here, I end up switching to artificial UVB for most of the reptiles, except the chams (especially Ryker). Ryker I make sure to get at least 4-6 hours a week of sun/outside time, and Neptune around the same.