Phelsuma very weak and refuses to eat after laying infertile egg - please help (((

[Nika]

Hi guys, could you please help me in identifying the problem and finding possible solution?

Before I start, I have to say, that this forum is my only hope, as it seems that we do not have any specialists in the country who I can address with Phelsumas' problems...

I have 2 Phelsumas, 9 months old. Usually active, curious, do not afraid of hands (can hold her without any problem, she walks around with me), do not fight one another, good eaters, correct weight.

Environment
Terrarium Exo Terra 24x18x24
UV 100 Exo Terra 26w
Humidity 65-80%
Usually shed fast and good.
The temps inside about 30-33C, nevertheless often they sit under the heat lamp.
The terrarium has lots of covers, bamboo, cork bark, artificial and live plants.

Feeding
Usual food - various Pangea, honey, silan (date syrup - like it very much), natural fruits, crickets, small night batterflies, dubia roaches, occasionally grasshoppers.
Rep-Cal Calcium and D3 for food, Exo Terra liquid calcium for drinking water.

The problem
About 2 days ago one of the phelsumas belched food. I thought it is because of shedding (which had begun). But the shedding didn't go well, as the Phel kinda refused to clean it, and kept going with the dead skin around, until I cleaned her myself.

Next day she belched again. The belly had swollen. Refused eating, even the most loved food. Felt very slow and dull, sluggish.

After a belly massage and a warm water bath, she laid 1 egg at open spot. The egg felt squishy (not firm), and probably infertile.

Since then she eats nothing, lost some weight. She can't hold on any surface other than horizontal - simply falls down, very weak and becomes visibly weaker as I look at her.

I understand, that it may be a strong decalcination after laying egg, but I can't force her into eating to replenish the stock - I smear the food over her nose, but she doesn't lick it.

I'm a bit panicking right now (actually, a lot of panicking, I love them very much), so I'd be grateful for any practice advise what can be done.

Thank you

 

[Nika]

 

[acpart]

Welcome to GU and sorry you're having a hard time. I would think it a bit unusual to have such a decline after one clutch. I have some leopard geckos that are having a hard time recovering from breeding but they have laid 8-10 clutches. As I understand it, sometimes over-supplementation with calcium can cause symptoms similar to under supplementation. It does seem as if you're kind of overdoing it with the D3 and the liquid calcium and the Pangea which also contains calcium and D3. I have also found that sometimes egg-laying causes latent problems with health to appear due to the stress of laying. Unfortunately, if you can't find a reptile vet, I'm not sure if there's anything you can do except make sure she's eating and keep her warm. Good luck and I hope she recovers.

Aliza

 

[Nika]

Thank you. My first assumption would be under-supplementation, given she laid an egg, so I tried to give her these. D3 I started giving a week ago after I found that Pangeas I have don't have D3 in the ingredients. Calcium I gave them twice a week, on insects, it doesn't catch much of the powder though. I have to say, that the second Phel feels great and healthy, so this has to be egg related I think...

Yesterday I made up the whole terrarium to be more comfortable for her.

I found her on the ground after the night, she barely moves, can't hold limbs properly ((((((((((((((( She hasn't eaten since yesterday, even the Pangea that I smeared near the mouth. The body temp seems to be lowish by feel.

Another new thing - the head became with dark stains. Usually she's very bright green, turns darker on the body when in stress. Now the head has dark stains as on the picture. Could be a result of low oxygen or something else?

I'm going to make her a warm batch. It's very hard to see her in such distress, I just hope she makes it (((((((((((

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Thank you. My first assumption would be under-supplementation, given she laid an egg, so I tried to give her these. D3 I started giving a week ago after I found that Pangeas I have don't have D3 in the ingredients. Calcium I gave them twice a week, on insects, it doesn't catch much of the powder though. I have to say, that the second Phel feels great and healthy, so this has to be egg related I think...

Yesterday I made up the whole terrarium to be more comfortable for her.

I found her on the ground after the night, she barely moves, can't hold limbs properly ((((((((((((((( She hasn't eaten since yesterday, even the Pangea that I smeared near the mouth. The body temp seems to be lowish by feel.

Another new thing - the head became with dark stains. Usually she's very bright green, turns darker on the body when in stress. Now the head has dark stains as on the picture. Could be a result of low oxygen or something else?

I'm going to make her a warm batch. It's very hard to see her in such distress, I just hope she makes it (((((((((((

View attachment 42306

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Environment
Terrarium Exo Terra 18x18x24
UV 100 Exo Terra 26w
Humidity 65-80%
Usually shed fast and good.
The temps inside about 30-33C, nevertheless often they sit under the heat lamp.
The terrarium has lots of covers, bamboo, cork bark, artificial and live plants.

Feeding
Usual food - various Pangea, honey, silan (date syrup - like it very much), natural fruits, crickets, small night batterflies, dubia roaches, occasionally grasshoppers.
Rep-Cal Calcium and D3 for food, Exo Terra liquid calcium for drinking water.

Have you any breeders in your country who might help? Sometimes fellow breeders know more than vets.

Your supplements including vitamin D3 may be off. Is there any aggression in the enclosure? A dominant female could prevent a submissive female from full access to whatever UVB rays there are!

Are you using Pangea's Complete Diets? I use them too. They contain cholecaliferol. Cholecalicferol = vitamin D3. With excellent bulbs I'd depend fully on the bulbs and NOT supplement with ANY pure powdered precipitated calcium carbonate, liquid calcium, or calcium with D3 supplement, except (maybe) for breeding females!

That extra calcium for breeding females should be supplied by pure calcium carbonate. Zoo Med makes Repti Calcium without D3.

• Click: https://www.amazon.com/Zoo-Med-Calcium-Without-Vitamin/dp/B005FTMGYO

Generally speaking when you use UVB lighting, that should provide all the UVB rays your geckos need.

• Are you also using Rep-Cal's Calcium with D3? That contains 38x more vitamin D3 than does Zoo Med's Repti Calcium with D3. It's overkill and could be harmful.
• Too much vitamin D3 can produce the same symptoms as too little vitamin D3 (like MBD - metabolic bone disease).

I don't trust Exo Terra bulbs at all. Instead switch right away to Zoo Med's ReptiSun bulbs or tubes. I use ReptiSun tubes for my Phelsuma.

• Click: https://www.chewy.com/zoo-med-repti...medium=cpc&utm_content=Zoo Med&utm_campaign=f

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~


/\ click to enlarge

• 
  Vet #1: The above scanned article is written by Douglas R. Mader, DVM.
• Vet #2: Mark Burgess, DVM, has performed many lizard, gecko, and chameleon necropsies which determined that the cause of death was massive over-calcification of the soft tissues, so this isn't "just talk". Dr. Burgess once wrote a letter to the FDA in regards to Rep Cal's calcium with D3. It's from another forum so I'm unable to share it.

 

[Nika]

Thank you very much for your answers. I'm very grateful.
I need to replace calcium and the lamp asap. Delivery to my country usually takes about 3-4 weeks, so I will get to it now.

Concerning domination - no, there was no domination. They were friendly to each other, sat together, no fights, they even slept together. There also was no territory fights, in the beginning they took a side of the terrarium, and it stayed this way. This was also the side I focused the lamp.

Yes, I use full diet (all kinds) from Pangea. I never saw D3 on Pangea ingredients, so I assumed it wasn't there. Now understand that it is there. Thank you.
Concerning calcium and D3 - my husband gave me Phelsumas as a gift for my birthday on June 5, it was my dream to get them. I thought initially that calcium and D3 are present in Pangea, so I gave no supplements for about 30-35 days. There were no signs of decalcination, both were active and jumpy, they can jump from one side of terrarium to another in one leap - 18 inches - and never missed. Just like frogs. There were no lassitude, convulsions etc. But given that I never had any real guidance, I read forums, and started to dip insects into calcium twice a week. But really a little bit, because Rep-Cal has a strong repulsive smell, and my Phelsumas don't like it. Liquid calcium I started to add a week ago into drinking bowls. My Phelsumas don't drink from the bowls though, they ask for a water rain and like to catch drops. So I pour water on them, and they lick it from noses or glass. Only once I saw one of them drinking from the bowl, so I really don't have an idea how much D3 made it into their bellies. ((((((((((( How much damage I could cause in a week ((((((((((

Concerning my girl - she died an hour after my previous post... After I picked her up from the terrarium floor, seemed like she gained some consciousness and even showed some weak activity. But then in terrarium she started to open her mouth widely and fall down. To avoid injury, I moved her to another small flat terrarium. She opened mouth wide, strong convulsions started, she made scary noises. The body became with uneven dark stains. It was really a very awful sight. Then it seemed like she calmed, lay down on a warm underlay. I left her for about 30 minutes, but when I came back she was dead. There was a drop of blood from her mouth. An hour after, more dark stains appeared on her body, which looked like hematomas. I was horrified. (((((( She was my special girl. She always got in the way when I cleaned the terrarium, jumped on my hands, liked very much when I caressed her. I am really afraid to even assume what was the reason for her death, as the owner always blame herself. It is extremely hard for me.

I didn't make any photos, it is too hard. It took me several hours just to calm down and stop crying, with pills.

Few hours later, most of her body became dark.

Could it be a second egg, that didn't come out and exploded inside? I thought of this while feeding my second Phelsuma. On the back wall, where my sick girl sat, there are a lot of white streaks. Too many to be a pee. Besides, she peed on my hand yesterday, it was regular crystal pee. She didn't poo, because she ate nothing. And there are many white streaks on the terrarium wall.


I really need your knowledgeable advise, I had another Phel, and I'm really worried about her health.

I didn't ask the breeder. He's a good guy, but I got Phelsumas from him in less than a perfect shape - they couldn't hold on glass, one has a damaged tail from unlucky shedding as I understood. Besides, his advise was to feed Phelsuams only with a cereal (something like Pangea), no need for insects. Of course I disregarded his advises and we breed our insects at home.

Thank you once again. This forum is a treasure for me, especially given that we do not have any specialist veterinarians in the country.

I bought Zoo Med Reptile Calcium on Ebay, Amazon doesn't deliver it here.
With Zoo Med lamp I have a problem, 99% of the sellers does not ship to Israel, and 13W is too weak for my terrarium. As written in the description, this lamp is fit for small terrariums and desert kinds. I loose my trust in Exo Terra, especially as the metal net on top of their terrarium is already rusted, and can't be cleaned.

I bought Arcadia D3 for day Gecko
7% 23W D3 Compact Forest Reptile Lamp:
High UVB Output for the synthesis of Vitamin D3 ideal for all rainforest species of reptiles such as chameleons, crested geckos, iguanas and water dragons.
Forest Compact Lamp is suitable for:
· Day Geckos
· Iguanas
· Chameleons
· Water Dragons
Reptile D3 compacts at a glance:
· D3 Lamp is perfect for rainforest and desert reptiles
· Natural Sunlight Lamp is ideal for leopard geckos
· Among the best on the market
· Fantastic value
· Strong UVB for 12 months



I have another 2 questions:
1. How does one Phelsuma copes alone? Is it normal for social reptiles to be alone?
2. After I will calm down a bit, I'll need some help with determining the sex of the second Phelsuma. We were sure we had 2 girls, the breeder told us too, but I need second opinion. After I saw the egg, I was sure the second one is a boy. Although they differ only in size, and nothing more. The surviving Phelsuma is smaller than my passed girl.

Thank you again to all.

 

[Nika]

Sorry, sorry, sorry....
My terrarium is 24x18x24 inches.
I use cm usually and made mistake in inches.
Exo Terra 60x45x60cm = 24x18x24 inches

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Since then she eats nothing, lost some weight. She can't hold on any surface other than horizontal - simply falls down, very weak and becomes visibly weaker as I look at her.

I have another 2 questions:
1. How does one Phelsuma copes alone? Is it normal for social reptiles to be alone?
2. After I will calm down a bit, I'll need some help with determining the sex of the second Phelsuma. We were sure we had 2 girls, the breeder told us too, but I need second opinion. After I saw the egg, I was sure the second one is a boy. Although they differ only in size, and nothing more. The surviving Phelsuma is smaller than my passed girl.

Sorry, sorry, sorry....
My terrarium is 24x18x24 inches.
I use cm usually and made mistake in inches.
Exo Terra 60x45x60cm = 24x18x24 inches

I'm very sorry your Phelsuma passed away. May she rest in peace. (9 months old is really too young for a female to become gravid. Her eggs may have been duds. Some people advise 18 months old before they are paired.)

In April 2015 and July/August 2015 I lost 2 breeding females (another genus) with similar problems including severe seizures. Both these geckos were too small to have blood drawn. One female made it to the vet before she died. The vet said, "If their bones are firm, they have been getting enough calcium." That was just not true. Both females apparently had calcium crashes from low blood calcium. I changed some husbandry and here's the 2017 news: 10 hatchlings from 2 new females (and both females) are doing very well!

Have you the sub-species name: Phelsuma___________________? I can't tell from your photo.

Exo Terra = 60 cm LONG x 45 cm WIDE/DEEP x 60 cm HEIGHT?

Please share a clear photo of your other Phelsuma's vent. Hopefully someone on Geckos Unlimited can help with sexing.

Arcadia makes excellent bulbs! :cheer: Arcadia bulbs are supposed to equal Zoo Med ReptiSun bulbs and tubes. As long as the bulb you just ordered is made for the height of your Exo Terra (60 cms high/tall) your geckos should not need any additional powdered D3. Remember the screen on top reduces UVB transmission by ~50%!

I'm pretty sure the cholecalciferol/vitamin D3 in Pangea is alright in addition to the bulbs.

I don't know the significance of the dark stains you mention. Hematomas?

My plan is to check back later this evening.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

What do you think about post 8?

 

[Nika]

Elizabeth,
Thank you very much for your post!!!

I'll be back in the evening and write you.
You're helping me a lot.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Elizabeth,
Thank you very much for your post!!!

I'll be back in the evening and write you.
You're helping me a lot.

:banana:

It feels good that Geckos Unlimited can connect successfully with people abroad. I realize I've not said much about the first part of post 6. I have not forgotten.

It's nearly midnight in Oregon USA. Usually I'm a night owl. I've got some geckos to feed first AND then take a long nap.

 

[Nika]

I'm very sorry your Phelsuma passed away. May she rest in peace. (9 months old is really too young for a female to become gravid. Her eggs may have been duds. Some people advise 18 months old before they are paired.)

Thank you for your kind words, I truly appreciate it.

I also think this was too early for eggs. Initially I thought I got 2 girls, at least that's what the breeder assured me about. My terrarium is located in my working office at home, so I have direct eye contact with them 8-12 hours a day. I never saw them mating. So the egg was a complete surprise for me.

In April 2015 and July/August 2015 I lost 2 breeding females (another genus) with similar problems including severe seizures.

It is very hard to loose our small friends. It was my first (and hopefully last) loss, and I feel it deeply.

I changed some husbandry and here's the 2017 news: 10 hatchlings from 2 new females (and both females) are doing very well!

You are lucky, these are great news, I'm very glad for you!!! I wish everything will be Ok with your girls EVER!

Have you the sub-species name: Phelsuma___________________? I can't tell from your photo.

Phelsuma Grandis

Exo Terra = 60 cm LONG x 45 cm WIDE/DEEP x 60 cm HEIGHT?

Yes.

Please share a clear photo of your other Phelsuma's vent. Hopefully someone on Geckos Unlimited can help with sexing.

I wait now that the Phel will sit on the glass, to make good close up photos.

Since yesterday the Phel flounces around the terrarium, looks like searching for her/his friend ((((((((( It is a heart breaking sight. He checks each hiding several times. Today's the same, it is so sad to watch. They were always together. I took these photos on different occasions, they are from different days, they were such good friends...




Now I am concerned about what to do. If I keep only one Phelsuma, how it will affect his mood and activity? Should I add another one? Which leads to another problem - it is practically impossible to get a Phelsuma in Israel currently. We've got two last ones from the breeder, now we have to wait another several months to get a grown Phelsuma. During this time my Phel may get accustomed to being alone, and may not accept a newcomer, and they will fight. Besides, the sex will be unknown. If what we have is a boy, means we can't get another boy, and this we will not know until 9 months. And we have no guarantees that they will have such friendly relationship with a new Phelsuma.

The remained Phel is not cuddly, like my girl was. He's a bit aggressive and easily alarmed. He still eats from my hands, licks my fingers with silan. He does approaches, he's very curious. He likes to tease our cats. But still, he doesn't go for a close contact, and he's very cautious. On the contrary, my girl was very easy to contact, I could touch and pet her without any problem, she never ran away. She could jump on my hand, make a trip to my shoulder, then to the head and sit there calmly. And go back to the terrarium by herself. Where would you get such a thing with Phelsumas? ((((((((((((((

Now the remaining he or she is in wide space alone, and it seems like he/she is sad.

I don't know the significance of the dark stains you mention. Hematomas?

I think it is hematomas. I think something happened with the second egg.

Thank you very much for the help and support.

Best regards,
Nika

 

[Nika]

It was hard to catch a photo, given he/she flounces in search of the other friend all the time.

Would this photo be sufficient to tell the sex?

Best regards,
Nika

 

[CynicKitten]

Looks like a female to me, due to the absence of femoral pores.

 

[acpart]

Looks female to me too. In general, Phelsuma are more comfortable as solitary pets, so your single one should be fine despite current behavior. The egg that was laid may not have been fertile. Of all my gecko species, the Phelsuma that I've owned have laid eggs the most often and none of them have ever been with a male.

Aliza
(ברוך דין אמת)

 

[Nika]

Oh, these are good news if she's a girl. But this makes me very much concerned again about egging given the latest experience (((((

 

[Nika]

In general, Phelsuma are more comfortable as solitary pets, so your single one should be fine despite current behavior.

This is very warm news for me, thank you.

 

[Nika]

Hi all.

Thank you once again for all your support.
I will write about the experience with my second Phelsuma, maybe somebody will find it helpful in the future.

After my girl passed away my second Phelsuma not just kept looking for her friend for days, but also refused eating. Probably it is the most social Phelsuma in the world, it seems like she couldn't stand being alone and just kept flouncing around searching. She refused her favorite insects and Pangea. She lost weight and seemed to be constantly in stress, and searching. The only thing I was able to squeeze was a drop of silan twice a day - it is her favorite food. But it doesn't have vitamin D3 and calcium inside. That's why I was worried about her. Three days without normal food I wouldn't consider Ok for healthy and active Phelsuma.

So I came up with a plan. Just like with a human. ))) I decided to change the surroundings completely, and by doing so distract her. So I removed her into another jar, and rebuilt the terrarium in full - thoroughly cleaned it, replaced the substract, removed some of old items and added some new items. I also added more vertical branches, which she loves to sit upside down (she likes them more than bamboo and cork bark). All those are new smells for her, new experience and completely new forest. When I released her into new environment, it took her 3 hours to explore it. She was slow and calm. Patrolled the territory, with long sit breaks on each branch, and even licked 2 drops of silan instead of 1.

So the plan worked!!!!!! In the morning I found my Phelsuma in her usual mood. She stopped being nervous, stopped searching for her friend, stopped running away from me. She fed with insects nicely and even licked Pangea Diet. Now it's already evening, and as far as I can tell, she continues to be Ok. Calm, curious, approaches to my hands again, no searching. She switches places randomly and sit there, which is the usual behavior.

I don't know how she will cope alone. Maybe she'll loose her activity (((( But what was important for me now, to balance her, stop her from searching, get her back into eating - that I believe I succeeded to achieve.

So if you would ever need to reset your Phelsuma's mood - change the surroundings in the terrarium, it may help.

I never thought that geckos could be so attached to each other. They lived together since hatching in the same terrarium at the breeder's, then at mine. The breeder told us that Phelsumas need to stay in pairs, that they like to socialize, so we got two of them together, without 100% knowledge about their sexes. I was afraid when in first days they were fighting and biting each other, tearing pieces of skin. I even had a thought to separate them, or return one in order to save the other. But after 3 or 4 days they made truce - I increased hiding places, secret coves, made 2 feeding spots - and they made peace. Moreover, they moved together and stayed together in all times, constantly side by side.

All in all, she'd just like little human. She could be distracted by new surroundings, which also worked for me too eventually. I made some changes in our house, built new home for crickets too (which seems to be liked by them), counted all Dubia population by hand one by one - and I felt better too.

Thank you once again to all of you. I don't feel alone in my gecko problem, it doesn't feel that much scary when I have people around who may understand what I'm going through...

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Nika ~

I'm glad Geckos Unlimited members offered you some feedback. It really helps to have a team! :biggrin:

What a wonderful idea! I'm happy your plan worked for your second female. From what you write, this female is now doing well after the sudden death of her female cagemate.

Can I keep your thread and share it with other Phelsuma keepers who may have the same problem?

 

[Nika]

Can I keep your thread and share it with other Phelsuma keepers who may have the same problem?

Of course, that's my initial intention. If it would help anybody else, means my experience was not gone in vein.